The Reason I believed the LDS church was True..

[_Who Knows]

To shorten the story I was having an appendicitis. The doctor said it was ready to burst and that I needed immediate surgery. By that time, the other two members of our Stake calling had come to give me a priesthood blessing. As of this time I had not received any medication for my pain. The pain was so great that I was perspiring. I do not remember what they said in the blessing. I do know FOR A FACT that the pain immediately left me. The doctor came in within a minute from the time the blessing was completed and asked me how I was doing. I told him that I was doing great and I had no pain at all. He said “I don’t give a damn what these guys did, that appendix is coming out now!” I then was wheeled into the operating room.

Hey, I had appendicitis too. I can relate to your pain which was 'so great that i was perspiring'. Interestingly though, my pain stopped on the way to the hospital. About 1/2 later though, it returned. And then shortly before surgery it went away again. All of this happened before I had a 'blessing' - which my HTers did right before surgery.

Can I explain why the pain came and went like it did? No. Was it attributable to the supernatural? I don't believe so. In looking for an explanation, I might attribute the subsiding of the pain to the fact that I knew i was going to the hospital, which somehow had some type of psychological effect on my body - that stopped the pain. In the second instance, perhaps it was that I finally knew I was going into surgery. I don't know. Perhaps it's just part of some normal cycle of pain that accompanies appendicitis. I don't know.

Sorry to rain on your 'power of the priesthood' parade here, but I thought I would share my similar anecdotal story as well.

[_Black Moclips]

Inconceivable -

I don't post much, because I'm not really that smart and I sometimes threadkill. But here are my thoughts.

Interesting original post. I actually envy that you have had those kinds of spiritual experiences. I wish I had some sort of confirmation, but I never have and maybe never will. I hope there is something though.

Its very scary when the perfect Mormon picture of what life is all about breaks and falls apart and you are left to pick of the pieces. Certain ideas still sound good and make sense, but others don't fit anymore, so what do you do with them? I have found some comfort in the idea that I was just feeling part of the elephant (maybe the backside!). But the idea that this picture is different and much much bigger is a fun idea. Its refreshing to feel that I don't know it all and have a lot more to learn. It does get frustrating too, because I just want to KNOW something, and I really don't. I enjoy learning from the atheists, agnostics, believers, new agers, and others, because each make interesting and seemingly valid points. Part of me just wants to identify with one group (the need to KNOW) but I try to resist "having to choose" because I don't want to fall back into some dogmatic viewpoint.

I have come to believe that if there is a God, there is no way he can justly hold anyone responsible for their earnest desires and pursuits for truth, regardless of what religion or ism they fall into (if any at all). I think the only hell is indecision-not seeking truth and not caring about it. If God really is that mean, we have a big problem.

Anyway, I hope you can start enjoying the path you are on.

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi Inconceivable,

Yes I could list many similar experiences that built what we LDS call our testimony. This had cause much conflict in me as other things have now not squared to these spiritual experiences. These are things I believe were and are very real. So, for me, this is why I have not thrown in the towel all together. They convince me personally, on a faith and on a metaphysical level that there is a power we call God. Also that religion contains truth but no one contains it all and that there are lots of man made power struggle stuff in all religion as well.

Also I came to know that many others all over the world have spiritual experiences and miracle in their lives. They think they have as much truth as we LDS do. How can I discount their expriences?

So, I am not sure how to square this all. I do no think my experiences were mere emotional things and many go beyond feelings as well. But I am not sure at all these days.

[_Inconceivable]

Hi In-co, thanks for sharing. You are in good company, and not alone in experiences such as You describe. I respectfully suggest they are of a Universal nature, not of a religious nature, that one can label as their nature & nurture has conditioned them to do. Religions of all stripes have been very involved in "nurturing" humanoids for over 1,000s of years. Not ALL bad. Not ALL good. But, is it at ALL necessary? Obviously to some yes, to others no...

As a still-on-the-books Mormon, since 1956, (who held most Local-Leadership-Positions) I can relate some what with your dilema--if I'm reading you correctly... Might it be You are ready to 'Graduate' but feel the pull of old-school-ties? You are ready to venture out, but feel unsure of Your footing... If so, quite natural. And just possibly You can't do it (now) because of conditions and circumstances beyond Your control--but somehow I doubt that.

Although, your reaction to JAK & MARG (not Marj:-) suggests YOU might not be ready to extricate yourself from LDSism, or religion in general??? IF You can ever set aside Your prejudice & thoroughly, intelligently consider JAK's rational, it will be to Your advantage. Whether You agree or not...Simply try to understand.

He's here to teach. I thought we were here to learn? You are presenting questions. Others are providing answers. Surely You don't expect ALL answers to be to Your liking??? Warm regards, Roger

I do retain a philosophy that it is unwise to jump from one flat spot to another.

Some picture themselves on a high ledge of a burning building and that regardless of the peril, they are willing to simply jump off, trusting the laws of gravity to take them to a better place. Not my view. I feel quite safe that the church will no longer damage me (as I refuse to participate) and it was never capable of taking my life. I choose to remain in limbo with my membership till I find greater consistancy/peace elsewhere.

JAK's suggestions are from the perspective of one that I believe has never perceived much more than his own intellect. We may define the supernatural however we wish, but it appears to me that JAK is unwilling to be sensitive to it because it would destroy his own comfort zone. That is his religeon and I think I am beyond this kind of narrow mindedness. I just find it arrogant and compassionless among other things. I think he has thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

No doubt, emotion is part of our human physiology. When we are children, we have a tendency of wielding it about as consistantly as an infant can control it's bowel movements. As we mature, we become aware that there is a time, place and need for control and restraint. I think this is when we begin to discern between emotion, intellect and spiritual manifestation. It appears that JAK has simply made his world simpler by concluding that spiritual manifestation is a product of a skew of emotion or even coincedence. I think many of us have determined that distinctions can be made.

Even though, as adults, we may still occasionally crap our pants.

[_Inconceivable]

So, I am not sure how to square this all. I do no think my experiences were mere emotional things and many go beyond feelings as well. But I am not sure at all these days.

Jason,

I think the challenge of trying to figure out how to square it all is the reason why most of us come to this board. I would not be here if I had it settled.

[_sruggio]

WhoKnows,

You are absolutely right, something in my brain may have stopped the pain. But what do I care. I would rather give credit to God for having mercy on me. Besides that, giving credit to God goes along with other Priesthood blessings, that I know of, where a miracle has occurred.

One, a nephew was given a blessing from his grandfather. The doctors said that he would live only a few hours. He hit a stopped school bus going 40 to 50 mph on a motorcycle. He was busy looking at some girls and didn’t even apply his brakes or lay the motorcycle down. He was 16 at the time, he is now 55. He is totally in-active, so did the blessing help his spirituality? No, but it sure helped mine.

Two, a couple in my ward had been trying for years to have a baby. Finally it happened, they were going to have a baby. After delivery, it was obvious that the baby had a heart problem. With drugs the doctors were able to keep the baby alive without mechanical help. After a few months the baby was allowed to go home but had to be isolated from potential illness because the drugs had minimized the baby’s immune system.

The parents were told that the baby needed a massive repair or a new heart but that they wanted the baby to weigh a certain amount before the surgery. Because his heart had to work so hard in order to maintain his life, the baby wasn’t up to weight by his first birthday. Then on one of their monthly visits, of the baby’s checkup, the time that it was taking for checking the baby was abnormally long. The doctor finally came in and asked “where are the parents of the miracle baby?”. After the original shock, the doctor told the parents that “never in recorded medical history has a heart with that much damage ever repaired itself.” Take your baby home, take him off of all medication and come back in 6 months.

The boy is now 5 or 6 and doing just great. I do not know if hospitals make this kind of information available but the hospital was Loma Linda University. Probably the worlds best hospital for infants with heart problems.

Say anything you want, I know for a certainty that God does bless His children. If you want to discount His blessings, that is your choice. “But for me and my house we will serve the Lord”.

Stan

[_Inconceivable]

Interesting original post. I actually envy that you have had those kinds of spiritual experiences. I wish I had some sort of confirmation, but I never have and maybe never will. I hope there is something though...

..If God really is that mean, we have a big problem.

I can relate very well to all of your sentiments.

Yeah, the original post is not particularly beleivable. Some of the blessing consisted of immediate and permanent relief of a neck injury and even the complete healing of a broken nose among others things (this goes against brigham young's statement that the kingdom had little need of doctors other than to set bones..). These are over the top sensational. But the greatest of all the experiences were not these at all - and I could have still lived just fine without all of them (allthough I always considered them natural because with God, all things are possible - so why not make it easy and have the faith of a child?). It was the inspiration or revelation I received while giving blessings that was of greatest value to me. Now I doubt if I could connect. My feelings of betrayal have overcome my willingness to participate in such things now. I can't force the process and I'm working out my perceived breach of trust between me and whereever all this came from.

Yes, the world is much bigger than we've seen it as Mormons.

[_Who Knows]

Say anything you want, I know for a certainty that God does bless His children. If you want to discount His blessings, that is your choice. “But for me and my house we will serve the Lord”.

I'm not sure how you 'know for a certainty', but that's for another topic.

I am not 'discounting' miracles. Look, miracles happen all the time. If god wants to take credit for them, or show us (as humans) that he is responsible, great, come down here and do it. Until that time, there's absolutely no reason to attribute unexplained phenomena to some invisible/all-powerful/creator-of-the-universe being (a.k.a. god). Does that mean I'm 'discounting' the greatness of 'miracles'? No, of course not. I just choose not to assign them to the result of a god.

The further along we as humans evolve, the more we find rational/scientific explanations for things. The previously unexplained becomes explainable. What once were miracles, or standard today. Meanwhile, we as humans continue to attribute the currently unexplainable to some higher power.

Isn't it great that people can unexpectedly be healed? Isn't it wonderful that people can survive all sorts of potentially fatal accidents? Of course! We should be searching for ways to maximize those things! We should be trying to understand them so that we can replicate them on a consistent basis - so that more can benefit from them. And we as a society have made great strides in doing so. Let's keep it up! Let's not 'discount' them as the result of a fictitious and fickle god and just sit on our butts and wait for something he may, or may not, 'choose' to do. :)

[_sruggio]

Who knows;

In a sense you are correct when you posted “The further along we as humans evolve, the more we find rational/scientific explanations for things. What you didn’t say is that the more we understand the more we realize that we don’t know.

For example; I am educated as an engineer, and as a mathematician. (degrees in both fields) What I like to claim is that I was probably the first software engineer (1965). I cannot remember how many times over the past forty years that I have said “computers can’t go much faster”. Obviously I was wrong every time. Heck my handheld Toshiba has more disk space and a faster CPU than the computer that ran the entire engineering department at my first job.

Let us just look a one thought that has taken a huge change over the past few years. In the field of astronomy, what we have for centuries thought to be some stars have actually turned out to be galaxies. This new discovery was made possible by the Hubble Space Telescope.

So no matter how huge we thought the universe was, this discovery has made it larger by many magnitudes.

Just taking this one scientific discovery as absolutely true, I cannot understand how any educated person can deny that there is a God. In fact I say many God’s because I can’t see how one God could organize something so massive. As an individual I am nothing as compared to the earth. The earth is nothing as compared to our solar system. Our solar system is nothing as compared to our galaxy, and our galaxy is nothing as compared to the universe that we now know.

It is absolute foolishness to think that this has all come about by accident. There is too much precision and order from the smallest thing that we think we know exists, to the vastness of the universe.


Stan

[_Who Knows]

Of course there is still much to learn. I haven't written anything to the contrary. My point was that, for some things, what we used to see as miracles, are no such thing - since we can understand how they function now.

Just taking this one scientific discovery as absolutely true, I cannot understand how any educated person can deny that there is a God. In fact I say many God’s because I can’t see how one God could organize something so massive. As an individual I am nothing as compared to the earth. The earth is nothing as compared to our solar system. Our solar system is nothing as compared to our galaxy, and our galaxy is nothing as compared to the universe that we now know.

So again, since you can't understand it, since you can't comprehend it, that means that 'god' is behind it?

It is absolute foolishness to think that this has all come about by accident. There is too much precision and order from the smallest thing that we think we know exists, to the vastness of the universe.

Says who? Says you? I assume because, again, you (we) can't understand it yet?

by the way, no need for the name calling.