Is a testimony so easily lost?

[_Dakotah]

I have heard so often through the years of 'losing your testimony' for such reasons as reading too much, not attending meetings, listening to the wrong stuff from almost anywhere and many, many others.

I KNOW the sun comes up each morning. It has since I can remember and I have faith it will do so tomorrow. So what if tomorrow is heavy clouds or forest fire smoke blots the sky out and I can't tell day from night, I KNOW the sun is coming up.

If I 'KNOW' the Gospel is true/Church is true, why are so many so worried I will lose this knowledge or faith? What is it about this 'knowing' that is so tenuous that we are in constant threat of losing it? Is it possible there is little 'knowing' and a lot of wishing and hoping but little actual faith?

[_Gazelam]

The problem is that people can delude themselves.

If they lose touch with the base of faith, the witness of the spirit which is the unbreakable rock that you can stand on, then they can lose their faith.

On the spire of the Temple there is an engraving of the Big Dipper, pointing to the North Star. Sailors would use constellations to find their way home on the sea. A sure knowledge provided by a witness of the Spirit works the same way. if you use it as a foundation it will lead you home no matter what waves come crashing down over you.

No matter what the so called "learned men" say, you know whats right.

[_Inconceivable]

If I 'KNOW' the Gospel is true/Church is true, why are so many so worried I will lose this knowledge or faith?

1) Because the words "know" and "believe" are used synonymously in the Mormon chuch. Once you understand the accepted definition in whatever language you speak it in you KNOW the difference.

2) Because it's not all true.

3) When you discover that not all is true, you recall that the prophets have reminded us (ad nauseum) that either ALL of it is true or NONE of it is true.

4) Your faith is then destroyed if you believe this lie - so you may be tempted to reject it all.

5) You may eventually come to your senses and realize it's not all lies. Besides, the church isn't the originator of much of the good material anyway. Now you begin this long journey in search of what's missing.

And that's why you're here, right?

[_moksha]

Perhaps they based their testimony on shaky ground. As the Buddha said in his Kamala Sutra:

"

Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias toward a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, ‘The monk is our teacher.’

... when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them."

If one followed this Buddha wisdom in determining your beliefs, then your beliefs would be on firmer ground.

[_Nephi]

I think the church does NOT teach to go and find out for yourself the truth of your convictions. Far too often people "know" the church and the faith is true only because they have known nothing else in life. This is not knowledge that the faith is true, but just a false assumption that one knows because they have had nothing in life to compare it to. If one has only played piano their whole life and never another instrument, then for them to say that the piano is the best instrument ever could be a false statement and is definitely based upon not enough information.

I think that the church does not promote its members to test their faith because there is a chance that you fall away from the church and it believes it is better to stay in the fold "lukewarm" than to fall away all together. However the Church fails to recognize that:

[quote=Rev 3:15-16]I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. [/quote]

In otherwords, lukewarm individuals in the church are not what is needed for spiritual growth. One will walk their path better if they are either 100% or 0% in their beliefs. I mean, what's the point in believing something only lukewarm? I say, go out and test your faith, and if you are not in the right place, search and find your right place. After all, that narrow path is yours and yours only, and no one elses, so don't expect someone else to describe how you get home on your path.

[_Livingstone22]

I feel that the testimony problem in the church is due in large part to the practice of absolutism. This is what I mean: I did not grow up in the church, and I still (after 5 years of being a member) am confused on why the terms "truth" and "know" are used so frequently. I think that the words "belief" and "believe" would be better used to describe those actual feelings. For instance, what does the word "know" mean? It is a justified belief in something that is true. And what is "truth"? It is a realist, objective actuality that is independent of all human conceptual schemes. I find it hard to claim a knowledge of a truth, especially when that "truth" is so intimately connected with a historical and cultural world-view--not to mention it being a religion that believes in super-natural, non-empirically-provable ideas.

With the notion that the doctrines and ideas of the LDS church are something to either be "true" or "untrue" and to be either "known" or "unknown," it leaves little to no room for doubt or inquiry--which I think is essential for spiritual and intellectual growth. As a true-blue Mormon, when confronted with a seemingly conflicting theory or world-view (our society is full of them), can a member's concept of the church's "truth" co-exist therewith? I feel it cannot if the religious belief is absolute and closed. In other words, when the observed world seemingly conflicts with what is seen as "truth" by Latter-day Saints, what happens? Does Mormon-religious "truth" Trump scientific/historical/world observations? Do scientific/historical/world observations Trump Mormon-religious "truth," or can they co-exist as educated observations alongside beliefs of an incomplete eternal view? I believe the latter (co-existence) is much harder to have when the concepts of "truth" and "know" are so often used in respect to our religious beliefs (truth and know connote perfect and absolute positions). If there was an admittance that we, as human beings, don't have or understand the totality of eternal, realist truth (objective and independent of human conceptual schemes)--then it would not be the case that members would have to choose between "knowing the church is true" and things like understanding historical evidence that Joseph Smith was deeply involved with the occult, or that there is evidence that there were no horses in the ancient Americas, etc.

[_NorthboundZax]

The problem is that people can delude themselves.

..snip..

No matter what the so called "learned men" say, you know whats right.

This is classic! Chiasmus at its best.

[_The Nehor]

The opening analogy is flawed in some ways. The sun coming up in the morning doesn't really compel you to do anything. Believing it and accepting requires nothing from you.

The Gospel requires everything. Accepting a few theological statements is not accepting the Gospel. When visiting less-actives there are two types....the few who no longer believe it and the majority who still believe it but do nothing about it. Both lost their testimonies. The former will say it's not real. The latter will say it is but something stopped them. Pride, cowardice, self-righteousness are the big ones we harp on. The more common ones are ambivalence, fear, exhaustion, and despair.

If a testimony was a simple belief then all it would require to maintain it is for nothing conflicting to show up. I haven't read up on gravity lately but I still accept it. I take it into account but that's all. The Gospel tells me to kill part of myself and rise new. It tells me to become Christ. That means I need to know who he is before I can do it. He's also incredibly foreign to everything I know and most everyone around me. It's demanding. It doesn't get any easier with time. The road slopes up and from what I can see it just keeps going up. Sometimes I expect that I'll show up on Judgment Day panting, exhausted, and tired.

A testimony is not bland knowledge. It's more like conviction. Most people have gone through many phases of being driven for something with varying success, varying desire, and for varying durations. Finishing college, getting a specific career, winning someone's heart, working/fighting for a cause, becoming something you are not currently, passion for a hobby, protecting someone, building a friendship, losing weight, etc.

I know I should drop another 20-30 pounds and put on about 10-20 pounds of muscle. I doubt I will be shaken that that is a fact. Do I have the drive to back it up? That's the crux. Do I keep working out? What do I eat? How badly do I want it? I want the girl. What will I do to win her? What will I give up to create a relationship? I want to learn something. How much time will I spend in the books? How much tedium will I take to win the prize? Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it sucks.

I've accepted the truths the LDS Church teaches and the Gospel it proclaims. It's demands are high. The rewards are higher. I get divine help. Do I want it badly enough to live it? Do I have the discipline to examine my life, my beliefs, my actions, and all that I am to bring it into conformity with God's will. Finding out his will is no simple feat either. The Scriptures have the general plan, my life is specific. So after long periods of study I have to commune with God which is exhausting and hard. Then I have to be willing to give up ANYTHING he requires of me. Every day I have to come back and report some failure.....EVERY NIGHT. Is it worth it? I think so. He rewards with happiness and true self-worth derived from what I'm becoming and not what I am. I also choose to believe him when he tells me that every pain will be worth it.

That's tough to swallow and it's grueling to stay on the path. The Church is filled with active people who have given up. Most people I've seen leave have given up the conviction and desire to go on long before they stop coming to Church every Sunday.

[_Gazelam]

Excellent post Nehor. You nailed it.

[_Runtu]

No, a testimony is not easily lost. It takes a painful collision with reality before you begin to question the validity of a testimony. You cling to it for dear life, hoping against all hope that your faith will be vindicated, even in a small way. When it becomes clear that your faith was wrong, it is one of the most painful experiences you can have.

No, it's not easy to lose a testimony. I think of KA's sitting alone, sobbing at the realization of what the church really is. I think of my wife and I holding each other, tears streaming down both our faces because the church isn't what it says it is. You tell me how easy it is to go through that.