Old before their time?

[_barrelomonkeys]

Hi Ray, I'm so sorry someone said something ugly about your daughter!

I can certainly understand how that would upset you. I know that when someone insults the people I love it is incredibly hurtful.

*Hoping you can find peace soon*


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3DXyfL3HX0

[_Ray A]

Ray, I just have to say here that I think you have gone off your rocker. Honestly.

Mark my words, and watch them come to pass. What happened in Missouri, can happen again. History is not a one-off. History is something we don't learn from. Why did the Missouri persecutions start? Because the Mormons were "different". The exmos mock and taunt Mormons, and they will be the ones who incite initial violence against Mormons. Think about who killed Joseph Smith. Apostates.

Joseph Smith believed that his enemies perverted legal processes, using them as tools of religious persecution against him, as they had been used against many of Christ's apostles and other past martyrs. Although he often gained quick acquittals, numerous "vexatious and wicked" lawsuits consumed his time and assets, leading to several incarcerations and ultimately to his martyrdom.

http://www.lightplanet.com/Mormons/peop ... rials.html

Of the mob attack on the night of March 24, 1832, Joseph recounted: "I found myself going out of the door, in the hands of about a dozen men; some of whose hands were in my hair, and some had hold of my shirt, drawers and limbs. . . . They had concluded not to kill me, but to beat and scratch me well, tear off my shirt and drawers, and leave me naked. . . . They ran back and fetched the bucket of tar . . . and they tried to force the tar-paddle into my mouth. . . . All my clothes were torn off me except my shirt collar; and one man fell on me and scratched my body with his nails like a mad cat."

History of the Church, 1:261–63.

Silly? Can't happen again?

[_Ray A]

Hi Ray, I'm so sorry someone said something ugly about your daughter!

I can certainly understand how that would upset you. I know that when someone insults the people I love it is incredibly hurtful.

*Hoping you can find peace soon*


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3DXyfL3HX0

Thanks, Barrel, but just in case you think I'm anti-exmo because of what was said about my daughter, this is only one symptom of their apostate inhumanity. They are like the Nephites who willfully turned against the truth, and sought forever after to justify themselves. They could get on with their lives, but they insist on demeaning and slandering Mormons in any way they can. This is a religion, and a people, I deeply respect, and I will defend their rights to believe as they wish. If any work is not of God, it will be made manifest, without help from the angry exmos, who are, for the most part, a very bitter lot.

[Guest]

Hi Ray, I'm so sorry someone said something ugly about your daughter!

I can certainly understand how that would upset you. I know that when someone insults the people I love it is incredibly hurtful.

*Hoping you can find peace soon*


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3DXyfL3HX0

Thanks, Barrel, but just in case you think I'm anti-exmo because of what was said about my daughter, this is only one symptom of their apostate inhumanity. They are like the Nephites who willfully turned against the truth, and sought forever after to justify themselves. They could get on with their lives, but they insist on demeaning and slandering Mormons in any way they can. This is a religion, and a people, I deeply respect, and I will defend their rights to believe as they wish. If any work is not of God, it will be made manifest, without help from the angry exmos, who are, for the most part, a very bitter lot.

Ray, I don't care why you are anti-exmo. Just like I really don't care why there are some that are ex-mos and wavering-mos or jack-mos. I just care about you.

Hope you are okay.



Me -----> <image snipped it was just for Ray>


knowing you are hurt, hoping YOU are okay. That you ARE a good person. So I wish you the best!

[_Ray A]

Ray, I don't care why you are anti-exmo. Just like I really don't care why there are some that are ex-mos and wavering-mos or jack-mos. I just care about you.

Hope you are okay.

You are too gorgeous. :)

Only just saw the pic, too.

[_gramps]

Ray wrote:

Think about who killed Joseph Smith. Apostates.

I know that. I actually come from a long line of apostates, Ray. Research the name "Augustine Spencer."

[_ozemc]

To put it as succintly as possible ... up yours.

I'm sure your life is the model of perfection and grace, eh?

We're all just trying to find our own niche and make it through the day. Some of that includes postings here.

If you don't like it, tough.

And you come here to find "truth", do you? The "truth" about the woman you married. The "truth" about the religion she believes in. You are oh-so-wary that she was indoctrinated into this religion based on "feeling", but I'm sure she didn't marry you on rational deductions. Or did she? If she did, then here is my advice to you - watch out!

No Ray, I don't come here to find truth as you put it.

I told you, I come here to find out more about her religion and how people that have been in it and left, and how people that are still in it think.

I no more consider the Book of Mormon truth than I do the "Wizard of OZ." Of course, I don't consider the Bible inerrant, either.

As far as the woman I married, she is the sweetest, most loving person I know. We have our disagreements, but, for the most part, we are happy, and just trying to do our best every day. She believes in what she believes in, and I believe in what I believe in. We are OK with that. But, I guessing by your responses to me that you can't believe two people could come to an agreement like that, so I must have some "sinister" reason for being here. Get a life, Ray.

I know why she joined the Mormon religion, and yes, since you seem to be interested, it was for "feelings". Unfortunately for her, she doesn't see the psychological issues that were going on in her life at the time she joined.

Then, as now, I see with her and with the people I have met in her ward and stake that they all base their belief in the religion on "feelings"; there's no rational discussion of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, the MMM, the Kinderhook plates, etc., etc.

[_ozemc]

I especially see that with the Mormon church, in the indoctrination of my wife. Not to say others don't, I just do not have the experiences of them to say one way or the other.

Did you marry your wife before she was indoctrinated, or after she was indoctrinated? Did you indoctrinate her to marry you? Do you question her judgement?

She was a Mormon when I married her.

I read your posts, Ray, and I actually feel sad that you have such a distorted, nasty view of life. For someone who claims to have the true church on their side, that seems a bit odd.

And the exmos who post here produce such a balanced view of life. You are either ignorant, or a fool.

To put it as succintly as possible ... up yours.

I'm sure your life is the model of perfection and grace, eh?

Nothing could be further from the truth, Ozemc. Ray A is a bonafide nutcase, who has been carrying on, and on, and on, and on about how horrible ex-Mormons are. The reasons for this are complex, but they most definitely involve a combination of A) Someone on Exmo-social calling his daughter a "crack whore"; and B) his old archnemesis DCP kissing his butt / praising his writing, or something along those lines. So, you see, Ozemc, if you too begin to smooch Ray's heinie, he will fall head-over-heels in love with you, and will praise you up and down the messageboards. Further, if you show up at his house and don't look down your nose at him, he will be smitten beyond compare.

The truth about Ray is that he is one of the biggest flip-floppers in the history of online Mormonism. He is worse than Will Schryver, and worse than any number of the Mopologists who turned exmo. Ray's massive "about face" is equivalent in gravity to a theoretical return to the LDS Church on the part of Steve Benson or Tal Bachman or Ed Decker.

I just think it's interesting that he latched on to my post as some sort of "plot" to degrade and infiltrate the religion and do what I don't know.

Obviously, since I post here, I have some sort of "sinister" plan and am going to expose things, and start my own religion, and get converts, and then the ship will come, and we all will go .... um, where was I? :-)

Seriously, how can someone get that worked up over someone asking a question?

There does seem to be some issues that probably should be discussed in therapy.

[_Yoda]

A poster on FAIR insulted my daughter as well. This poster was supposedly a good Mormon. I read him the riot act as well.

Well I'd like to know who this poster is, and what he/she said. On this point, I fully stand by you.

Thanks, Ray.

I figured you would. ;)

Actually, the incident happened when I first started posting on FAIR(back in 2003). I don't even remember the posters' name. I do remember that the poster was male. It wasn't one of the "regulars".

I just remember being so shocked that a supposed Church member could be that cruel. I had come to FAIR for clarification on things I had read about, and honestly had questions regarding Joseph's polyandry. I was immediately told by Dunamis a.k.a. Juliann that I was a troll. It was actually Dale that took me under his wing and answered some of my questions in the Fellowship Forum, and we exchanged several very friendly PM's.

This guy who verbally attacked my daughter made giant leaps and assumptions regarding her character because I had mentioned that she was involved in GSA (Gay-Straight Alliance) at her school. She abhors violence against others, and being involved in Theater, had many friends who were homosexual, and being discriminated against, and literally beaten up at school. The GSA provided "safe" classrooms incorporated with school staff. My daughter was actively involved in this campaign.

The reason the issue came up was because several posters on the board were talking about this organization, but didn't really know what it was about. Since my daughter was involved, I simply posted what I knew about GSA.

This poster came after me, making snide comments about how I was in the dark, that my daughter must be gay, and how "proud I must be of her".....It got really ugly.

I responded, and was literally shaking when I was through with the response. I just couldn't believe that someone who had claimed to be a Church member could be so ugly, and could verbally attack my daughter when he didn't even know her.

Fortunately, I don't think that this poster posts on FAIR anymore.

And, this was a mild incident compared to what was said about your daughter. I think if that had happened to me, I would have been physically ill and then hopping mad, as you rightfully were.

[_Ray A]

This guy who verbally attacked my daughter made giant leaps and assumptions regarding her character because I had mentioned that she was involved in GSA (Gay-Straight Alliance) at her school. She abhors violence against others, and being involved in Theater, had many friends who were homosexual, and being discriminated against, and literally beaten up at school. The GSA provided "safe" classrooms incorporated with school staff. My daughter was actively involved in this campaign.

Liz, I think even the GAs would have supported your daughter in her wish to stamp out violence against Gays.

The reason the issue came up was because several posters on the board were talking about this organization, but didn't really know what it was about. Since my daughter was involved, I simply posted what I knew about GSA.

This poster came after me, making snide comments about how I was in the dark, that my daughter must be gay, and how "proud I must be of her".....It got really ugly.

I have a Muslim workmate who frankly confessed to me, just two weeks ago, that much of his "anti-Gay" feelings arose because of his culture and upbringing. He said, "I can't get those feelings out of me". This was an extraordinary confession, from a young man (only 21), who could see that his ideas were prejudiced, yet he could not escape those feelings. In Muslim culture this is an unspeakable offence. Literally. The "problem" for me, personally, is that I have copped more abuse and delinquency from heterosexuals. I regularly transport gay people from a gay nightclub in my work, and they have never given me any trouble. It is the "drunk heterosexuals" who have. The Gay people are always friendly, and seem to have a "live and let live" worldview, which is probably why the word "gay" was coined, "stolen" some would say. I have seen Gay-bashing on FAIR, and I have not always commented, but I do not agree with it. Probably the worst thread I have seen is where one poster suggested that adultery should be reinstated as a criminal offence. If that's the case, then you can impeach most presidents of the United States. Bringing sexual preference into politics seems endemic not just to Mormons, and Christians, but Americans at large. It is not so in my country. As long as you're not a rapist or paedophile, your sexual preference means nothing! I think Americans have a real hang up in this regard. No doubt I'll get some fiery commentary. The failure of this poster was not understanding your daughter's abhorrence of violence. And that was the main issue. But what I'm saying is that this is not necessarily a "Mormon thing", or a "TBM thing". It is both a cultural and religious taboo. If you pay me a dollar for every anti-Gay comment I hear from "ordinary people", I will be approaching Bill Gates' bank account. So what I'm saying is, don't blame "TBMs" for this; it is widespread, and not necessarily confined to "religious people". Not excusing the attack on your daughter, either.

Fortunately, I don't think that this poster posts on FAIR anymore.

I think FAIR has been reasonable, and I don't believe they support Gay-bashing. A Gay poster named "Daniel" has had a difficult time on FAIR/MAD, and I have never, ever attacked him. I very much empathise with his viewpoints, and like him a lot, because he brings his message across very effectively. But let's be "fair". Mormons are often attacked, so the mods cannot be expected to defend "Daniel" from attacks when their own are under constant attack, yet I think sometimes they have.

And, this was a mild incident compared to what was said about your daughter. I think if that had happened to me, I would have been physically ill and then hopping mad, as you rightfully were.

You know what the real irony of this is, and really made me mad? This daughter is as straight as they come. She firmly believes in fidelity, and once told me that if she ever found out that her husband cheated on her - he's out the door! Yet this bastard called her a "crack whore". How mad would that make anyone? Especially a father.