Would you die for Jesus?

[_The Nehor]

I don't know what I'd do. Go with the Spirit probably. I've been told that being Islam means submitting to God and a Muslim cleric said by that definition I am Islamic already and I have no problem with calling God Allah along with a host of other names I use. In fact I've used Allah in my prayers without having a gun in my face.

Still, if I needed to die and God thought it meant something I would die. If they insisted I deny Christ I would hope I had the courage to die. Of course I'm also of the belief that I can get it least as much (if not more) done dead than alive.

[_silentkid]

Of course I'm also of the belief that I can get it least as much (if not more) done dead than alive.

This statement troubles me.

I would have no trouble denying the existence of any god or converting to some man-made religion if my life was in danger. Life is precious above all.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Of course I'm also of the belief that I can get it least as much (if not more) done dead than alive.

That troubles me as well. Nehor, I've also seen you say that you look forward to death so you can have intercourse.

I hope you find a woman soon.

I'd wager the live ones are a bit more enjoyable to *know*. :)

[_Gillebre]

I'm with Nehor on this one.

And I never thought I'd say this next bit, but Bill Keller was correct one at least one point (I won't touch the rest). That point would be that you can SAY you'll die for your faith and beliefs all the time, but it is a different situation when you are actually confronted with that decision.

Personally, I can say right now that I'd rather die than deny what I know to be true. :)

Besides, like Nehor said, I'm of the opinion that, if my life were cut short, I'd have a lot more work to do in the spirit world than I've ever done on earth as a mortal. Hey, there are some how many billions of people who ever heard the restored gospel of Jesus Christ? That's x billions of people who need to be taught it so they can receive the blessings of the everlasting restored gospel. ;)

"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those who transform into the Force, miss them do not, mourn them do not. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side."

Man, so many special little tidbits can be found in Star Wars quotes. :D


Ultimately, if faced with that situation, I would go by the Spirit's influence.

[Guest]

Of course I'm also of the belief that I can get it least as much (if not more) done dead than alive.

This statement troubles me.

I would have no trouble denying the existence of any god or converting to some man-made religion if my life was in danger. Life is precious above all.

Right is more important than life. Way I was brought up and I still believe it. I also still hold to what my father taught me about virtue. If you see a girl being raped you die if necessary in trying to stop it. Whether I'd have the courage to do what I claim I have no idea.

[_The Nehor]

Of course I'm also of the belief that I can get it least as much (if not more) done dead than alive.

That troubles me as well. Nehor, I've also seen you say that you look forward to death so you can have intercourse.

I hope you find a woman soon.

I'd wager the live ones are a bit more enjoyable to *know*. :)

I admit part of me is eager to die. More for the experience and the sudden change of scenery. I'm not going to kill myself though and I also think I still have things to do.

I don't remember saying I want to die so I can have sex. I have my doubts Spirits even can. If I want sex it's wait for the ressurection or get it here. Since I can't affect timetable for Second Coming death would not hurry up sex coming. I do stand by that sex is better after the resurrection. When you know your partner's every want as they do it's bound to be.

[_silentkid]

Right is more important than life. Way I was brought up and I still believe it.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. It reminds me of this poster that used to hang on the wall in the BYU testing center. I think the quote was from Maeser. It said something to the effect that if he drew a circle around himself in chalk and gave his word never to step outside of it, he'd die before he went back on his word. I think that kind of absolutism is ridiculous (not to mention untestable). I think religion cheapens life by making one's unsubstantiated beliefs more important than one's life.

[_The Nehor]

Right is more important than life. Way I was brought up and I still believe it.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. It reminds me of this poster that used to hang on the wall in the BYU testing center. I think the quote was from Maeser. It said something to the effect that if he drew a circle around himself in chalk and gave his word never to step outside of it, he'd die before he went back on his word. I think that kind of absolutism is ridiculous (not to mention untestable). I think religion cheapens life by making one's unsubstantiated beliefs more important than one's life.

I don't think my beliefs are unsubstantiated. The kind of thinking I'm talking about is untestable (or at least the test is dangerous and the results permanent). Again I disagree that religion cheapens life. In my experience it enriches. I think that a life lived with nothing in it worth dying for is not a real life. Most people would die for their children and that doesn't cheapen their life it makes it more vibrant. Should my God be less?

I have seen that poster as well. I disliked it. What most people call honor is pride.

[_silentkid]

I think that a life lived with nothing in it worth dying for is not a real life. Most people would die for their children and that doesn't cheapen their life it makes it more vibrant.

I agree with this. I just don't feel that religion fills the "nothing" you refer to above. I've actually found more meaning in life without the constraints of religion. I'd like to think that I'd sacrifice my life for my wife (if I had one) or children (if I had any) or country, if need be. To me, that's different than being willing to sacrifice oneself for a god-belief.

[_wenglund]

As a kind of aside, this is one of the things that irked me about Les Miserables. Val Jean could easily have partaken in Cossette's and Marius' happiness and become a part of their lives, living happily ever after.

Yet out of some strange sense of moral duty (motivated is appears by his devout religiosity), he could not. He just HAD to play the role of martyr. It was totally unecessary and I can think of no reasonable moral code that demanded it; only his hyper-active sense of religious moral duty.

I realize this is fiction, but it has parallels in the totally unecessary martyrdom of so many religious adherents. Religious martyrdom can be, I suppose, enobling, but it can also be unecessary. Is God really that big of a monster that he could condemn someone for putting the welfare of his/her loved ones over his/her own rigid sense of regligious obligation?

I am not sure why you may suppose that martyrdom, or willingness to die for one's faith, is about condemnation avoidance. It certainly doesn't factor into my religious consideration. Rather, I would be motivated morally by love and my devotion to such vital, religious principles as freedom, liberty, honor, valor, duty, etc.--the importance of which may, at times, exceed that of human life.

I view somewhat less simplistically the situation described in the OP. To me, the circumstance was about more than just converting to Islam or be shot. I believe it was also about loss of agency as well as what messages may be communicated to the world. I would decline conversion to Islam under those conditions, not just because it would contraven my religious beliefs and commitments, but also because I would not wish to communicate to the terrorist or the world that it was okay for Muslim extremist to violate civil liberties and religious freedoms in that way (how Guy Sajer missed these moral imparatives is beyond me). I would not wish to be a party to their propaganda efforts. In fact, I would hope that my subsequent death would outrage moral people throughout the world, and mobilize them against such immoral acts. in hopes that family members and loved ones and fellow countrymen would not have to be subjected to the same. I would do it, not just because I love my faith and my God, but also because I love freadom and liberty and safety for all. I believe my life would be worth that.

But, that may just be me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-