The testimony: An Emotional Lie

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_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

Polygamy Porter wrote:Horse crap Dude.

I would die for this country...



I'd rather agree with Gen. Patton *, PP, but if it came to it, it's worth the risk. I'm refering to defending the Constitution/Bill of Rights.

It's pretty daft to find a downside to democracy when comparing it to middleeastern totalitarianism that feeds on the hatred toward free societies.


* making sure the other poor ba&#$%rd dies for his..
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

Comrad Scottie was blabberring when he wrote:
What about patriotism? Those of us that live in the USA, are we just telling ourselves lies that America is the greatest country in the world in order to further believe our own lie? Or do you really believe it? Because I can show you millions, if not billions, of people that call America the Great Satan. Is it just merely a point of view then? If so, then why is it any different for religion? Why are Mormons deluded idiots that can't see the truth right in front of their faces, yet you are so smart that you KNOW against the billions of others on the planet that curse the US? Obviously you can't objectively look at the evidence that they have and come to the same conclusion, so you're an idiot as well, right?


Scottie, you're kidding, right??

Not only is the US the Great Satan, but so are you (to them). They are indoctrinated from childhood to HATE and view others from opposing ethnic/cultural backrounds as less than human. That is why they do not flinch when taking the life of someone they see as equal or lower than an animal. Their minds and spirits are darkened to freedom and liberty.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if they even felt entitled to some of BY's virgins.

I would give two thumbs up to your reading the Constitution and Bill of Rights and be infected with their concepts.

Pushing democracy is encouraging people to take responsibility for themselves, community and nation. It's teaching tolerance, restraint and compromise. The fact that some US citizens don't respond positively is a reminder that it is only one of several options in a free society.

It's a false assumption to conclude that just because billions of people live under the heavy hand of oppressive governments doesn't mean that they believe in them. They have no choice.

Their governments dismally suffer by comparison.

Your government teacher needs to be fired and sent to mine salt.

But I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I failed to see your point.

flame off.
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

Polygamy Porter wrote:Scottie,
If you do not enjoy being an American, then please, by all means go live somewhere else.

I agree with scottie here. This post totally ignores what his point is.

Polygamy Porter wrote:Horse crap Dude.

I would die for this country. I served in the Army.

You know why I'd die for this great country? Cuz I live in it and it has given me much happiness and joy. Tangible things that I use in my life as I am free to pursue my path to happiness.

Religion and specifically Mormonism(since this is mo'dis.com) promises you NOTHING for this life. ZIP, zilch, nada. So if you want to die for NOTHING go right ahead!


The fact that you served in the army or would die for this country pays nothing towards your argument. Scottie's point here is that just because you think this is the greatest country in the world doesn't make it so, and could (in fact) be founded upon lies and deceit. There seem to be plenty of Muslims willing to die for their countries and their way of life as well. So the fact that you are willing to die for yours does not add any validity to your argument here.

If you are telling us that you would die for tangible things, meaning cars, houses, things of this sort, then that's pretty shallow. I would never give up my life for things like this. If (on the other hand) the things you would die for would be your family, and your way of life (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness), then you are not laying your life down for tangible things, but for concepts and "morals" (minus a family, which is something most men would lay their life down for, regardless of country).

The US gives people promises and hope that they can make a better life for themselves, which is evident from all the (il)legal immigration that comes to this country everyday. That's a fairly strong correlation to people who join the church for promises of a better life through structure and submission towards God's plan and laws. Does this mean that everyone who joins the church or immigrates to this country DOES find a better life? No. Does this mean that the whole thing is a lie? In both cases, the fact that its a lie is more of a personal judgment than anything else. One could easily look at church history or facts and figures given out in the modern church and say that its a lie, but one could easily look at what and how the US government has operated and still does to this day and say the same thing.

A testimony isn't a lie someone tells themselves to feel better about something and strengthen their belief in it. A testimony is the things which the individual builds their belief upon some concept. In both cases (ANY Church or belief, or the US Government) the testimony can be called a lie if the person calling it as such has a point of view in which the things the testimony is built upon are considered false. In other words, just because someone has a testimony doesn't mean it is something they tell themselves strengthen a lie they have. A testimony is not inherently a lie or the truth. A testimony is. To call it a truth or a lie takes a point of view, which is subjective.

To quote Dave Matthews (very appropriately here).....

"Go ahead and dream. Go ahead believe that you are the chosen one."

In other words, if you think your way is the best and everyone else's way is wrong, then you (in a way) believe that your path is the path of the "chosen one" and you are disillusioned. When people realize that there is more than one path home, and though there is only one path for you, all paths are true, when people realize this, then the world will actually begin to mature properly. Mankind is still stuck well within his adolescents, like middle school kids who think their "clique" is the right one, and everyone else's is just wrong. Fools are we that hate's the gate to peace.
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

Merc,

I see your point. I don't particularly agree with your conclusion. It does seem like a very miserable state to me and I would rather resist it. That being said:

Testimony is a word that lacks a solid meaning. I think that Mormons generally leave it's definition subjective so they don't end up with other liars in hell before they finally come to that perfect knowledge. No kidding.

"I know" does not mean "I have a perfect knowledge" to Mormons (even though that is the very assumption they are inferring).

Litmus test:

Let's all role play.

Suppose the One and only true God and Jesus appeared to you and they asked you to bear your testimony.

Keep in mind, They know you. They know whether or not you really know. For the first time in your life you know that they know whether or not you really know. Look at their all knowing countenances. What do you really know?

Or will you wimp out and get just one last confirmation

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

(New Testament | Mark 9:24)


So what is testimony?
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

Inconceivable wrote:Testimony is a word that lacks a solid meaning. I think that Mormons generally leave it's definition subjective so they don't end up with other liars in hell before they finally come to that perfect knowledge. No kidding.

"I know" does not mean "I have a perfect knowledge" to Mormons (even though that is the very assumption they are inferring).

Litmus test:

Let's all role play.

Suppose the One and only true God and Jesus appeared to you and they asked you to bear your testimony.

Keep in mind, They know you. They know whether or not you really know. For the first time in your life you know that they know whether or not you really know. Look at their all knowing countenances. What do you really know?

I think I am confused here... Are you suggesting that if God and Christ appeared before anyone and asked them to bear their testimony, NO ONE would be able to because only God and Christ KNOW, and everyone else just has faith? Or are you suggesting that Mormons do not know, but others do, and so Mormons would fail where others would not? I am confused here.
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

Inconceivable wrote:I would give two thumbs up to your reading the Constitution and Bill of Rights and be infected with their concepts.

Pushing democracy is encouraging people to take responsibility for themselves, community and nation. It's teaching tolerance, restraint and compromise. The fact that some US citizens don't respond positively is a reminder that it is only one of several options in a free society.


Um, I hate to derail this thread, but how much of the Constitution and Bill of Rights is actually followed by the current administration? Our government uses it power to get what it wants out of the world, and they don't mind stepping on others "less than them" to do it. Our government then gives us lies about what it is doing to appease the masses. The Bill of Rights? The Constitution? These are pieces of paper that the government ONLY follows when forced to (see Guantanimo Bay, see wireless phone taps, see the NSA, or the countless coverups that have been uncovered by the media). Hell, if dirt wasn't a profitable business to the media news agencies, we wouldn't know anything about this stuff to begin with!

I agree that the pure concept of Democracy gives people responsibility for themselves and their nation, and it does teach tolerance, restraint, and compromise, somewhat, but Democracy is coupled with a free enterprise system that does not teach any of these things. The free enterprise system puts the mighty dollar as the top priority, and the pursuit of it is at the cost of anything else.

What tolerance was seen in the US government's treatment of Native Americans, or slaves? Hell the only reason slavery was outlawed was because Lincoln wanted to cripple the south's economy (it had nothing to do with human rights). What tolerance is there to those who are held captive without trial or anything at Guantanimo Bay? Even our own government admits that hardly any of them can be charged with any crime (they are not guilty of anything). What restraint is being seen by the US economy when it comes to suspicion of environmental degradation and irreversible damage to the environment? What compromising was seen by the US government when it came to the current conflict in Iraq? Hell, the rest of the the WORLD was telling us what we were about to do was wrong, and yet we went in guns blazing for what? Nothing... These people are NOT better off. Instead of having to worry about a tyrant (Hussien) killing them, they have to worry about their neighbor killing them. The rate of death in Iraq is now much greater than it was before the war. And the US was not willing to compromise about ANYTHING on this.

What compromise is the US going to grant Iran, now, and what credibility do we have with the world after the stunt we pulled in Iraq? Tolerance, restraint, or compromise are not a given when it comes to the US government (a free enterprise, democratic population). I am not saying that its totally absent here, but its definitely lacking. What the US government is and what it was defined to be by the two documents you mentioned are very different from each other.
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

Nephi wrote:I think I am confused here...


How many Mormons can look God in the eye and say they know Joseph Smith is a prophet of Him?

I thought I could, but honestly, if he didn't appear with Him wairing gold pants (which of course would be a final affirmation), I would need one more affirmation.

honestly.

My point is that perfect knowledge and I know are not synonomous. In our hearts, we know the difference and so does God.

Perhaps we should be willing to let all the clues of knowledge fall where they may.
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

Inconceivable wrote:It's pretty daft to find a downside to democracy when comparing it to middleeastern totalitarianism that feeds on the hatred toward free societies.

I didn't say the USA is the WORST country, just that it's not the best.
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

Inconceivable wrote:
Comrad Scottie was blabberring when he wrote:
What about patriotism? Those of us that live in the USA, are we just telling ourselves lies that America is the greatest country in the world in order to further believe our own lie? Or do you really believe it? Because I can show you millions, if not billions, of people that call America the Great Satan. Is it just merely a point of view then? If so, then why is it any different for religion? Why are Mormons deluded idiots that can't see the truth right in front of their faces, yet you are so smart that you KNOW against the billions of others on the planet that curse the US? Obviously you can't objectively look at the evidence that they have and come to the same conclusion, so you're an idiot as well, right?


Scottie, you're kidding, right??

Not only is the US the Great Satan, but so are you (to them). They are indoctrinated from childhood to HATE and view others from opposing ethnic/cultural backrounds as less than human. That is why they do not flinch when taking the life of someone they see as equal or lower than an animal. Their minds and spirits are darkened to freedom and liberty.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if they even felt entitled to some of BY's virgins.

I would give two thumbs up to your reading the Constitution and Bill of Rights and be infected with their concepts.

Pushing democracy is encouraging people to take responsibility for themselves, community and nation. It's teaching tolerance, restraint and compromise. The fact that some US citizens don't respond positively is a reminder that it is only one of several options in a free society.

It's a false assumption to conclude that just because billions of people live under the heavy hand of oppressive governments doesn't mean that they believe in them. They have no choice.

Their governments dismally suffer by comparison.

Your government teacher needs to be fired and sent to mine salt.

But I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I failed to see your point.

flame off.

I'll try and reiterate my point then, since you failed to see it.

Merc is saying that TBM's constantly tell themselves "lies" to reaffirm this same lie. Even though, in their own mind, it's not a lie. How is this any different than us telling ourselves that America is the greatest country on earth? We have been born and raised to believe this. In our mind, it's not a lie, it's the truth. To billions of others, however, it is a lie.

From the ExMo perspective, the TBM's are telling themselves "lies" that the church is true.
From the anti-American perspective, we keep telling ourselves "lies" that America is the greatest nation on Earth.

Please tell me where the difference is? From the anti-American's POV, obviously most of you have some serious cog dis going on that won't allow you to look at America with a critical eye. You are lying to yourselves.
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

Nephi wrote:
Inconceivable wrote:I would give two thumbs up to your reading the Constitution and Bill of Rights and be infected with their concepts.

Pushing democracy is encouraging people to take responsibility for themselves, community and nation. It's teaching tolerance, restraint and compromise. The fact that some US citizens don't respond positively is a reminder that it is only one of several options in a free society.


Um, I hate to derail this thread..


You ought to read it too, Nephi. You need a lesson in good vs evil, freedom vs oppression, dictatorship vs representative democracy. According to Mormons, there was a third in heaven that didn't get it either.

Vapoorise the Constitution and Bill of Rights and there is no standard to gauge legitimate corrections. The fact that some Americans are not willing to live by (and bend it to their own desires) is an indication that the country is free enough to tolerate them. If left unchecked the US will loose it.

You may have noticed that just a few years ago, you were required by law to free all those slaves that work in your front yard (i'm assuming you're white, delightsome and chosen because your name is Nephi). You even have to pay them for services rendered, let them drink from your fountain, attend your child's school and even vote. Part of the outcome of that battle called the Civil War helped to define what these documents meant on the subject.

Iraq is still a fledgling democracy just as Japan and a few other countries were. Of course there's isn't exactly like the US and freedom needs tending when planted. You may have noticed that more Iraqis voted in their election per capita than Americans ever did in theirs.

The world would be much different if the national language in America were Japanese, Russian or German. Sheesh.

I can bet with certainty it will never be French.

Anyway, it's a good read and pretty simple to understand. Some even went so far as to call it a Heavenly Banner

It might help you get your eye back on the ball.
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