Christian Reformation...2007

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Paul, no, i'm not fed-up by you at all. In fact i'm quite fascinated by your stance, and opinons. I'll inject in bold:

then lets take a look at that sermon
(by the way, on what grounds do you accept those sayings and deny anything he said after his resurrection?) RM: Because i seriously question "...his resurrection...)
in 5:28- he talks about sinning by thinking wicked thoughts about women...can't I free my mind to think what I want? RM: At that moment he was chiding the self-righteous in the group... Had he been as rigid as they, he would not have shamed them on the occasion of the adulteress brought before him. You know the story--"...cast the first stone..."
next couple verses he talks about the dangers of going to hell (or am I supposed to throw those portions out?) RM: I take it you mean v 29 & 30, about cutting off an offending hand, and plucking out an offending eye. Do you really take that literally?
how about the Lord's prayer in chapter 6 where he says we should pray that God's will be done (doesn't that mean I subordinate myself to His will???) RM: If you take it that way... I think it means we, knowing what's right, should endevour to do what's right. More to our advantage than "God's"--you'll never go wrong doing right :-)
If we are to forgive those that do evil against us, doesn't that imply that we can do evil against others? RM: Certainly... And if evil is being done, than we must accept that evil is a fact, RM: Obviously, by whatever term is used, it's bad stuff... forgiveness is a necessity (not?) only from our fellow man but also from God (which is mentioned in that section)
why do I need forgiveness from God? Who is He that I should need His forgiveness? RM: I don't think i can answer that to your satisfaction. However, if you consider the principle of 'reciprocation' you might think of it terms of "casting bread upon the waters"; "reaping what you sew" etc...

later on in chapter 6 he mentions the possibility of "the whole body being in darkness" yikers... RM: Darkness = ignorance, greed, meaness, prejudice, hate etc... For sure "YIKES!!..
in chapter 7 verse 11 he states that we collectively are "evil" (imperfect?) was this just a poor choice of words in an otherwise uplifting address? RM: As one sees it through time? I'm sure you are aware, the words we read in the bible--all versions--are words transcribers thought appropriate to them in their time...
and dare we even attempt to address verses 13 on talking about how many will find the road to destruction and only a few find the road to life? RM: It is more than a "dare" Paul. I think it incumbent upon each and everyone to find truth and goodness, for only therein will one enjoy the fullness of life. And, as said, ufortunately too few ever find it...
and why stop here (although Christ should have while WE were ahead) those stinging verses in 7:22-23 when people who had done good things stand before the Father in heaven and He has the audacity to state "Depart from me I NEVER knew you" what is spongs take on that or do we just ignore that part.
RM: Those verses have always fascinated me. Sort of like, "...the first will be last, and the last first..." Many ways they can be considered... I tend to think in terms of the hypocracies that seemed to agravate Jesus. You'll note his "attacks" were never directed at the simple folks, but rather towards the robed and frocked hiearchies.. who he boldly stated, "...didn't know "God"... That's another thought worthy of contemplation. Wouldn't you say??

I know you get fed up with me but the God you choose to serve has no foundation except the imaginations of foolish men who like everyone have a simple choice. Accept God as He is and change ourselves to meet His standards, or change God into an image that is more pleasing and gratifying to ourselves.

Paul, it doesn't take a lot of study today, with information at our finger-tips that scholars of the past couldn't accssess, to be aware of the evolution of Christian thought and practice over the 2,000 of its existance. This to me is a good thing. And, it will be even better as we strip away the trapping of tradition to more fully understand those "Two New Commandments" at the core... Warm regards, Roger

[_Sam Harris]

Spong in his latest NL:

I am a bishop in the Church. I am deeply devoted to the Christ who stands at the heart of the Christian story. I treasure the sacred scriptures of my faith tradition and study them daily. Nonetheless, I am repelled by so much that I see emanating from within institutional Christianity today. Everywhere I go I confront a spiritually hungry population, but one that is increasingly unwilling to listen to the religious claims of those who have done such evil to so many while claiming that they are speaking for Christ. Most people I meet think that their[you] only options are to continue to be part of this kind of abusive tradition or to rid themselves of all religion. That is why atheism has become such a popular subject for books today.[/you] I think a better alternative is to call the Christian Church into a new reformation that will transform it from being a power-seeking institution designed to create religious conformists to one whose goal is to enhance our common humanity. That would be for the Church to walk in a vastly different direction. (UL & bold added)

John Shelby Spong

Do you think Spong is insightful? Is there a need for Christianism to shift emphasis from the blood-of-Jesus to the physical/mental/emotional/psyche/intellectual health & welfare of "our common humanity"? Warm regards, Roger

I think that Christianity is definitely facing the reality of postmodernism. Sadly, the religious right is digging their heels in as much as possible, and it isn't helping that the fundamentalist atheists are helping things along by calling all believers fools in the extreme.

I believe that human beings are far more psychic and interconnected than they give themselves credit for. I also believe we are immensely powerful, as the state of our world should prove. If we can do so much evil, why not do so much good, it is within our power?

I'm reading Conversations With God, and I know that many people feel that Walsch pretty much penned this book of his own mind. I'm of no opinion. But there are some truths in there, one of them being that we do shape the world we live in, we create the lives we live, on both the sub-, conscious, and superconscious level. That's not to say that those in pain always put themselves in those positions, or that suffering is deserved, often people suffer due to the oppression of others...but it is still action. This can change, this can stop.

I think that far too many are still buying into the Inquisition hype, the Original Sin hype. Walsch's first book made a good point about how Christians make such a to do about being like the Devil, yet think it's blasphemous to be like God. If only we could just tap into our Divinity, things would really change.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi GIMR, nice to read You again. (Is the Avatar You? :-) I read that book several years ago. Enjoyed it. Yes, there are many good anti-religious-establishment thoughts in it. I totally agree, the power of good is in each and all. That it is slow to develop, and too often over-shadowed by self-doubt can only be attributed to powers/forces/institutions that would rather keep us in tow than let us forge ahead.

HOWEVER, inspite of the "fundies" & "neggies" of all stripes, intelligence is prevailing over ignorance, and truth is manifested by science as we continue to seek without prejudice. (Example: DNA breakthrough) Accepting the "New" doesn't necessitate abandoning all "Old". Only that which denies the present in favour of institutionalized falsehood, fear and guilt, to our disadvantage... Warm rgards, Roger

[_Sam Harris]

Hey Roger, good to see ya! You always bring such insightful posts to the board.

Yes, that's me. A snippet from a larger picture of me picking up a girlfriend and laughing at her mock-horror. LOL!

There was a snippet in CWG about institutions, and how individuals might seek for social change, like doctors who wouldn't hold back cures, politicians who might work for better causes, but the institutions that they worked within were set up so that they indoctrinated and oppressed, thus ensuring their survival.

I agree with you (and Spong) that accepting the New doesn't necessitate abandoning all Old...which is why I hold onto my faith. Things around us change, but that doesn't mean that we have to lose our souls in the process. Just because we cannot see the "soul" in science doesn't mean it's not there. It just means that with every breakthrough, in some peoples' eyes, one more miracle has occurred that will help millions more.

G'night Roger, have a wonderful evening.

-GIMR

[_Roger Morrison]

Thank You, for your intellect, your common sense, your 'faith'...AND your lovely smile! I'm posting a 'New Topic', in this 'Kingdom', that i think you, and (some :-) others will appreciate... Warm regards, Roger