Runtu wrote:Remember, if God tells them to lie, it's not a mark of low integrity. If God tells them to sleep with girls behind their wives' backs, it's not adultery. If God tells them to publicly call women "whores" because they refused to sleep with the prophets, it's not slander.
"That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. ... Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is." -- Joseph Smith
Normally, yes, but we're assuming Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet as per Harmony's explaination.
Scottie wrote:Normally, yes, but we're assuming Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet as per Harmony's explaination.
I'd say he was a "fallen prophet" before, say, 1820 or so. ;-)
That implies he was at one point an actual prophet. :)
You never know. Seriously, I wonder how I ever worked it out in my head. This guy with questionable morals and ethics produces "scriptures" that are clearly not of ancient origin. And why do we think he was a prophet? Oh, yeah. Because we feel the spirit, just like people in other religions do.
Scottie wrote:Normally, yes, but we're assuming Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet as per Harmony's explaination.
I'd say he was a "fallen prophet" before, say, 1820 or so. ;-)
That implies he was at one point an actual prophet. :)
You never know. Seriously, I wonder how I ever worked it out in my head. This guy with questionable morals and ethics produces "scriptures" that are clearly not of ancient origin. And why do we think he was a prophet? Oh, yeah. Because we feel the spirit, just like people in other religions do.
Yeah, same here. I look back at some of the apologetic garbage I used to swallow and think to myself, "How in the ever loving name of God did I ever believe this crap!?!?"
Earth only 6000 years old? Well, God made it from other worlds! Makes perfect sense!
Polygamy in Utah? It was because so many men died crossing the plains. (Note, I NEVER knew Joseph Smith had polygamist wives until I went to RfM)
Runtu wrote:The sources beastie cited were LDS sources, not "antis."
Even the faithful LDS can write that which is not necessarily accurate. Bruce R. McConkie's ironically named tome, Mormon Doctrine should be ample evidence of that.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
Runtu wrote:The sources beastie cited were LDS sources, not "antis."
Even the faithful LDS can write that which is not necessarily accurate. Bruce R. McConkie's ironically named tome, Mormon Doctrine should be ample evidence of that.
We have firsthand testimony, much of which is heartwrenching, from those involved, such as Helen Kimball and others. We have the affidavits of the wives for the Temple Lot case. Are their own statements inaccurate? There is ample and overwhelming evidence of what happened. To say otherwise is indeed lazy, as it means you haven't done any research into these matters.
If there were ever a person who desperately wished these things weren't true, it would be me. Learning about Joseph's behavior was devastating to me (and still is, in many ways). I understand that it doesn't bother others, but it bothers me.
Unless the rejection of those statements entails a rejection of core LDS doctrine, it is probably easier for me to doubt those statements than to doubt the character of Joseph Smith as prophet of the restoration. I know that isn't necessarily fair or open-minded of me, but that's simply the way it is. It is easy (and admittedly lazy) for me to realize that Satan may oppose the work from many angles, especially from within. Frankly I think polygamy may be a favorite ploy of his. That said, it does bring up questions about WHY God would command polygamy and thus make faith harder. I guess it wasn't hard enough already although I'm not sure why as I don't consider myself to be all that great at the faith thing.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
Unless the rejection of those statements entails a rejection of core LDS doctrine, it is probably easier for me to doubt those statements than to doubt the character of Joseph Smith as prophet of the restoration. I know that isn't necessarily fair or open-minded of me, but that's simply the way it is.
I understand that completely. For years I felt the same way you do. I read Helen Kimball's account of her parents' coming to her and telling her that she had to become Joseph's wife at age 14 to ensure the exaltation of the Kimball family. She said her mother considered it an offering like a sacrificial lamb. That Helen later accepted the doctrine of polygamy does not change what Joseph did to her and her family. For years I refused to reach the obvious conclusion and figured that God must have known what he was doing. That we have to close our minds off to anything that might cause us to doubt says a lot about our faith, doesn't it?
It is easy (and admittedly lazy) for me to realize that Satan may oppose the work from many angles, especially from within. Frankly I think polygamy may be a favorite ploy of his. That said, it does bring up questions about WHY God would command polygamy and thus make faith harder. I guess it wasn't hard enough already although I'm not sure why as I don't consider myself to be all that great at the faith thing.
That really doesn't make much sense to me. God commanded something so that Satan would have a tool to use against the restoration?
Again, this is the thing that bothers me most about Mormonism: we accepted things that we knew were wrong because to reject them would cast doubt on Joseph Smith's role as prophet. In essence, we surrendered our conscience in an effort to prop up our belief. That is what I will never forgive myself for doing.
Runtu wrote:Again, this is the thing that bothers me most about Mormonism: we accepted things that we knew were wrong because to reject them would cast doubt on Joseph Smith's role as prophet. In essence, we surrendered our conscience in an effort to prop up our belief. That is what I will never forgive myself for doing.
I'll forgive myself for doing it, because I have repented and promised to go, and be thoughtless no more. :-)
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen