Why a lack of faith?

[_marg]

Monkey, while some choices are always limited, what you choose to believe is not. If one is an atheist, that is a choice, since belief is an option. Even if one have not belief in God, there are other items in life that one chooses to believe in.

I was once an atheist, but the thought of there being a connectedness to a Universal All was too attractive to resist. It made me feel comforted. From that point, I was able to pick and choose the rest of my beliefs concerning life and the metaphysical.

There is a huge difference between having a belief in a universal all, with a a non interfering God versus believing the various God claims of religious organizations and their sacred texts as literal truth.

Ask an atheist if they believe in a connectedness to a Universal All, they probably wouldn't find much if anything to disagree with.

[_JAK]

Hi Jak. :)

What is unnecessary and pointless? Me pretending that God exists in hopes that it will make it real? I'm sorry, I'm not following you.

Hi barrelomonkeys,

What is unnecessary and pointless is making up religious myths or relying on ancient or recent ones. We have plenty of them. None is reliable. Claims vary greatly. They rely on truth by assertion.

That approach is unreliable. So what’s unnecessary is speculation and claims absent reliable evidence.

I added to that the following:

What is relevant is that no evidence has been presented for God claims in their various and contradictory inventions. We can say that with historical documentation. There was no evidence for gods and there is no evidence for the various claims for God (as a singular).

The fact remains that people have been well indoctrinated and with emotional fervor. We can document that as well.

JAK

[_Livingstone22]

When I was young, I used to believe that atheists and those who weren't religious didn't have any reason to be good people, to have values, or to find purpose or meaning in life. I have found this assumption to be wrong. I have met many non-religious people that find purpose, meaning, and hope in life and what ever may be beyond--if anything. I forget who now, but there was once a philosopher in history who said that man should not fear death--that if there were an "afterlife," survival would continue; if survival ceased, then there would never be a problem since we wouldn't ever know that we hadn't survived death.

The will to believe in an afterlife or God may bring happiness and security, but we have never had clear and substantial proof for knowing this. We have not experienced an afterlife. Our world is one of memories and perceived future life--which will probably only last 70 or so more years at the most. That's it. Even those who are strong believers mourn greatly at the loss of a loved one. (I remember how sad President Hinckley was at his wife's funeral). There is a great unknown portion of things, and perhaps the lack of knowledge is all we can ever hope for in this life.

Thank you truthdancer for your comments. I think everybody struggles to find some sort of happiness for living and having lived. And it is true that not one life has ever failed to produce effects upon the rest of mankind. Happiness and love is something that all beings exert on the rest of the world. I think we can always find satisfaction in the things we do here on this crazy planet called Earth...even if it is the last things we will ever do. We know we exist by the fact that we are perceiving things as they are now ("cogito ergo sum," "I think, therefore I am" as René Descartes once said). Like those things which exist at a certain place but not all places (we can say they do exist--even if not "here"), that person who existed once at a point in time, shall exist always--even if only as history.

[_JAK]

barrelomonkeys stated:
Do you think you could wake up tomorrow and say God doesn't exist and believe it? Give it a try. :) I bet you can't even get it off your tongue. When I try to say God does exist it comes out in an odd manner and feels false and forced. It's not there. So whether I find comfort in my life or not I can't waste it away looking for something that I don't believe in that is going to give it meaning.

It’s unnecessary and pointless. What is relevant is that no evidence has been presented for God claims in their various and contradictory inventions. We can say that with historical documentation. There was no evidence for gods and there is no evidence for the various claims for God (as a singular).

The fact remains that people have been well indoctrinated and with emotional fervor. We can document that as well.

JAK

Hi Jak. :)

What is unnecessary and pointless? Me pretending that God exists in hopes that it will make it real? I'm sorry, I'm not following you.

Hi barrelomonkeys.

Sorry I was unclear.

barrelomonkeys wrote:
Do you think you could wake up tomorrow and say God doesn't exist and believe it?

It’s pointless to make such pronouncements. No evidence for God has been established. In addition, specifics on various God claims are dubious.

It’s pointless to speculate about “wake up tomorrow and say...”

More to the point is recognition that God claims are ambiguous, religious groups disagree on various claims, and no consensus regarding God claims can be demonstrated.

Claims are therefore unreliable religious myths.

Hence making them is pointless.

Of course “pretending” or wishful thinking about religious dogma is pointless.

Sorry for the confusion.

JAK

[_moksha]

Of course “pretending” or wishful thinking about religious dogma is pointless.

JAK

People are always finding their own points in beliefs and activities that are pleasing to them. Perhaps you are in a
quandary as to the lack of proofs available for the claims of religion? Many religious people also find themselves in
this same quandary. Such proof does not exist. So what should we do? Obviously you have found your pathway
and these other religious people have found their pathways. They do not have to converge except in sharing their
common Humanity. For the religious people who admit the unknowable and yet believe anyway, their belief and
desires for believing are sufficient. As the poet said, the heart has its reasons. For them, their belief is not pointless.

[_keene]

What comfort does atheism give you when you are old, frail and about to die?

I lived my life to the best possible fulfillment I could have. It was joyous, and I have no regrets. I don't /need/ comfort, my entire life is lived as if death is imminent.

Does it help mourn for you when you have lost a spouse or a child?

No, but lying to myself that they're still alive doesn't help me either. What does help is living well beforehand, so you don't regret anything once they're gone.

Does it celebrate with you the momentous events in your life?

No, it makes my momentous events stand on their own, so they're not shaded or invaded by anything else.

Does it help you survive adversity?

Yes, because I know that I am the only thing I have, and I must make adversity bow down to me, because I don't have another chance.


The basic theme is: Comfort holds you back.

[_keene]

Monkey, while some choices are always limited, what you choose to believe is not. If one is an atheist, that is a choice, since belief is an option. Even if one have not belief in God, there are other items in life that one chooses to believe in.

I was once an atheist, but the thought of there being a connectedness to a Universal All was too attractive to resist. It made me feel comforted. From that point, I was able to pick and choose the rest of my beliefs concerning life and the metaphysical.

Hi Moksha. I don't know how I chose to not believe? I've gotten on my knees and begged to know God. Meditated. Pleaded. Prayed. Fasted. He's not there for me. How can I make Him be a reality? How do I do that?

Hypnosis. Brainwashing. Muscle memory. And if all else fails, drug therapy.

It's quite easy to get anyone to believe anything. :)

[_The Nehor]

Monkey, while some choices are always limited, what you choose to believe is not. If one is an atheist, that is a choice, since belief is an option. Even if one have not belief in God, there are other items in life that one chooses to believe in.

I was once an atheist, but the thought of there being a connectedness to a Universal All was too attractive to resist. It made me feel comforted. From that point, I was able to pick and choose the rest of my beliefs concerning life and the metaphysical.

Hi Moksha. I don't know how I chose to not believe? I've gotten on my knees and begged to know God. Meditated. Pleaded. Prayed. Fasted. He's not there for me. How can I make Him be a reality? How do I do that?

Offer him all your sins.

[_JAK]

Of course “pretending” or wishful thinking about religious dogma is pointless.

JAK

People are always finding their own points in beliefs and activities that are pleasing to them. Perhaps you are in a quandary as to the lack of proofs available for the claims of religion? Many religious people also find themselves in this same quandary. Such proof does not exist. So what should we do? Obviously you have found your pathway and these other religious people have found their pathways. They do not have to converge except in sharing their common Humanity. For the religious people who admit the unknowable and yet believe anyway, their belief and desires for believing are sufficient. As the poet said, the heart has its reasons. For them, their belief is not pointless.

By pointless I intended that it’s a waste of time. There are far too many things to learn and do to spend time trying to find a suitable religious myth. They are unreliable.

moksha said:
People are always finding their own points in beliefs and activities that are pleasing to them.

They may be, but it’s no refutation that it’s pointless as in a waste of time which could better be spent -- becoming a medical research scientist and help develop better treatment or cure for cancer (for example).

moksha said:
Perhaps you are in a quandary as to the lack of proofs available for the claims of religion?

Not “in a quandary...”

moksha said:
Many religious people also find themselves in this same quandary.

Not “in a quandary...” Nothing in any of my posts should lead you to such a conclusion “also” as if your incorrect assumption about “quandary” were accurate.

“Religious people” are largely victimized by organizations richer and more powerful than they are.

Some “religious people” shop for a church group or gravitate toward one which has friends of theirs or remain entirely un-inventive and go to the “religious” group of their parents.

moksha said:
Many religious people also find themselves in
this same quandary. Such proof does not exist. So what should we do?

Worse. No credible evidence has been established for any religious myth

As I previously stated, we should find more productive use for our abilities or talents.

moksha said:
Obviously you have found your pathway and these other religious people have found their pathways.

I’m skeptical. It’s largely a matter of propinquity -- being in a certain place at a certain time. I’m skeptical that people generally do any academic research to decide religious questions, issues, dogmas, or just recognize the plurality of religious myths.

moksha said:
They do not have to converge except in sharing their common Humanity. For the religious people who admit the unknowable and yet believe anyway, their belief and desires for believing are sufficient.


First sentence isn’t meaningful to me. “Converge” is unclear or that “they” (whatever that means) must do anything. That humans share humanity seems self-evident.

moksha said:
For the religious people who admit the unknowable and yet believe anyway, their belief and desires for believing are sufficient. As the poet said, the heart has its reasons. For them, their belief is not pointless.

“Religious people” are generally victims and victimized as well. It may be worse than pointless. Consider the young, Islamic fundamentalist willing to die in a suicide bombing to bring about “the will of God” (which he has been taught).

Consider the religious people who reject completely medical science in favor of prayers to God. It’s worse than pointless. It’s harmful to their children whom they deny medical care. It’s harmful to them as they shorten their life by denying themselves medical care in favor of prayer to God.

So perhaps I understated the danger by using the word “pointless.”

JAK

[_barrelomonkeys]

i didn't realize there was still a conversation going on in here.

So today, I tried to find God again. Sorry. Zippo. Offered up me, asked? Prayed? Nothing. nil.


I think God probably does exist and hates me.