What disqualifies a prophet?
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_moksha
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_SatanWasSetUp
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The great thing about being a prophet is the only person that can hire and fire you is you. If you say you're a prophet, voila you're a prophet. If you say you don't want to be a prophet anymore, you're not. It's an easy job to get. In fact it's so easy there are approximately 8,658 prophet's today, which kinda dillutes the importance of the job and makes each of the prophets insignificant. But hey, if they're proud of their job title, who are we to make fun of them?
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
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_Nephi
moksha wrote:Before you could ask what disqualifies a prophet, shouldn't you first determine what qualifies at prophet in the first place? If it is solely God's decision, then wouldn't God be the sole arbiter?
There is a major flaw, though, with this logic. I was watching a tv show one day (NCIS), and there was this holy jihad guy on there... Here was his logic for a jihad:
The Holy Jihad shall continue until the Lord says it is time to stop. How do you know when the Lord has told you this? When the Jihad has stopped.
The logic above about a prophet is dangerously close to this circular logic. I think (more so), a person is defined as a prophet by the culture that is in observance of that individual. Its not always the people of his/her time that are around him, and can (instead) be individuals in the future or past who know of the individual, but whether or not an individual is a prophet is based upon the other's interpretation of that person's actions. Is Joe a prophet? Ask the individual, they will tell you. God does not come down to a grove of trees and tells us, so its all a faith based decision regardless.
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_Mercury
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thestyleguy wrote:I think that it would hard for TBM's to explain why they didn't get Missouri when Joseph went with his little army in 1833, or why he lost big time in 1838. I thought both times God was on his side and would carry him to victory.
Nope, even that is disqualified as yet another faith promoting F***up.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
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_beastie
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Folks, listen up. We won't have our LDS posters subject to this kind of constant badgering. We have an asked and answered policy here and the critics time and time again have failed to provide us with the definition of a prophet.
Juliann, my darling, how I've missed you!!!
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
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http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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_bcspace
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What disqualifies a prophet?
Numbers 22 is an interesting case of a prophet not disqualified despite of what he had tried to do.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
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_mentalgymnast
Re: What disqualifies a prophet?
Runtu wrote:I've been thinking that for a lot of people, nothing Joseph Smith could ever have said or done would affect their belief in him as a prophet. Shady business dealings? Nope. Lies? Not a chance. Suspect sexual behavior? No way.
So, what would do it? If he had been, say, a serial murderer, would that change anyone's opinion, or would you guys just say, "I know he was a prophet, and he must have had a good reason for doing that"?
Hi Runtu,
Who are you comparing Joseph Smith to as you decide whether Joseph Smith is worthy of the designation of a prophet? For a moment let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the Judeo-Christian tradition of Old Testament prophets has merit and that "the one true God" mandated his will through them. And, while we're at it, that the New Testament luminaries were actually called by Jesus to do God's work. Which of these individuals, let's name a few, would serve as good role models for a modern day, early frontier, rough hewn prophet?
Regards,
MG
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_Sethbag
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_Sethbag
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Thing is, it really doesn't matter how Joseph Smith compares to Old Testament or New Testament prophets at all, if there's no good reason to believe that the Old Testament or New Testament prophets were any more legitimately realy prophets of a God who actually exists than Joseph Smith was. I don't think they were, so the defense of Joseph Smith that says hey, he's not any worse than Moses was or whatever just doesn't hold much water with me. Moses might not even have existed, and if he did, probably didn't do a lot of the things it's said in the Old Testament that he did.
I find it absurd now to think that if a God did exist, and wanted us to know about him, that he would choose the method of appointing a human being on earth to act as his representative, and then appear and talk only to that one person, and have that person relay his message to the rest of us. It's just totally and completely absurd.
One of the main reasons it's so absurd is that it's so easy for anyone who wants to to stand up and proclaim that he's seen God and that God annointed him (in private, of course) to be his prophet and deputy on earth. Oh, and by the way, we all have to do what this prophet says, because God said so, by way of this prophet. And God's kingdom on earth needs money, so start writing your checks to this prophet, who will act as God's financial receiver on earth as well. And one more thing. God commanded this man to marry and have sex with lots of young girls and women, so bring your daughters (and wives?) by so he can have a look at them and see if God gives him the burning of the loins, I mean bosom, which indicates to him that God has given your daughter (or wife) to him. Oh yeah, one more last thing, I promise. If this prophet's real wife happens to be around, don't come, and make sure she doesn't know you did, and burn this note once you've read it.
Uhuh.
I find it absurd now to think that if a God did exist, and wanted us to know about him, that he would choose the method of appointing a human being on earth to act as his representative, and then appear and talk only to that one person, and have that person relay his message to the rest of us. It's just totally and completely absurd.
One of the main reasons it's so absurd is that it's so easy for anyone who wants to to stand up and proclaim that he's seen God and that God annointed him (in private, of course) to be his prophet and deputy on earth. Oh, and by the way, we all have to do what this prophet says, because God said so, by way of this prophet. And God's kingdom on earth needs money, so start writing your checks to this prophet, who will act as God's financial receiver on earth as well. And one more thing. God commanded this man to marry and have sex with lots of young girls and women, so bring your daughters (and wives?) by so he can have a look at them and see if God gives him the burning of the loins, I mean bosom, which indicates to him that God has given your daughter (or wife) to him. Oh yeah, one more last thing, I promise. If this prophet's real wife happens to be around, don't come, and make sure she doesn't know you did, and burn this note once you've read it.
Uhuh.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
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_Runtu
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Re: What disqualifies a prophet?
mentalgymnast wrote:
Hi Runtu,
Who are you comparing Joseph Smith to as you decide whether Joseph Smith is worthy of the designation of a prophet? For a moment let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the Judeo-Christian tradition of Old Testament prophets has merit and that "the one true God" mandated his will through them. And, while we're at it, that the New Testament luminaries were actually called by Jesus to do God's work. Which of these individuals, let's name a few, would serve as good role models for a modern day, early frontier, rough hewn prophet?
Regards,
MG
I wasn't meaning to limit the discussion to Joseph Smith, though on rereading the OP it seems like it.
My question was more of a general one: what kind of character do we expect from a prophet, assuming that prophets exist, and what lines would have to be crossed before we would reconsider our confidence in a prophet?