"I have no choice what to believe"

Post by **_Some Schmo** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:29 pm

Scottie wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:I think you must be getting me mixed up with someone else. I never claimed that America was the best country on Earth. In fact, I was born and raised in Canada, man. I moved to the US when I was 31.

Oops...You're right. It was PP in the "Testimony: An emotional lie" thread that was almost ready to fight me for saying America wasn't the best.

You and I went back and forth quite a bit in that thread, which is why I thought it was you initially.

My apologies.

No worries.

You are likely not aware of it (because I've never said it) but I enjoy our conversations dispite our regular disagreement. Don't know why I felt the need to say that, but what the hell. FYI.

Post by **_Scottie** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:46 pm

Some Schmo wrote:You are likely not aware of it (because I've never said it) but I enjoy our conversations dispite our regular disagreement. Don't know why I felt the need to say that, but what the hell. FYI.

Same here. It's nice to have a good debate without getting a lot of emotion into it. You seem to keep a pretty level head, and you've made me question my views more than a few times.

Edited to add: Oh, you're from Canada? Do you know Tal?

(My friend from Canada said that every time he told someone he was from Canada, someone would ask if he knew someone else that lived there. Like it's such a small country that everyone MUST know everyone else. People are sure stupid.)

Post by **_truth dancer** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:29 pm

Hi Schmo...

I guess one of the sticking points for me is the fact that there are stories of people who convince themselves of certain things in the face of contrary evidence. I know I've done this for myself on certain things.

I see from where you are coming...

In terms of changing oneself... I'm a hypnotherapist and right with you when you suggest we can change beliefs in the way you describe.

But I see it a little differently. I think when we change beliefs about ourselves we are changing ourselves and the belief becomes the reality.

This is different, in my mind than trying to believe something that is untrue and will remain untrue regardless of belief.

For example, if I am a poor public speaker and work to change the belief, often behavior changes that supports the belief and the belief changes as does the reality.

OTOH, if I believe the moon is made of cheese, regardless of how hard I want to make it a reality, it will not turn into cheese.

Now, if I believe the moon is made of cheese, and upon seeing clear and overwhelming evidence to the contrary, refuse to accept the reality that it is not, I may expand my idea of what is cheese (anything that looks like cheese), or I may redefine what is the moon, (anything that is round and yellowish), but the reality doesn't change.

More to my particular position, if I have experienced the moon, read all the information available about the moon, understood the scientific knowledge surrounding the moon, handled moon rocks, talked to astonomers who have been to the moon, and someone tells me it is really made of cheese, how woud I choose to believe this and retain a sense of reality?

Do you think it is possible?

:-)

~dancer~

Post by **_Some Schmo** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:47 pm

Scottie wrote: (My friend from Canada said that every time he told someone he was from Canada, someone would ask if he knew someone else that lived there. Like it's such a small country that everyone MUST know everyone else. People are sure stupid.)

I can totally relate to what your friend said. I've gotten this several times. I come from the west, and I remember this one girl from Nevada many years ago asking me if I knew some dude in Toronto. So I drew her a map. She was pretty hot, and being the adolescent bag of vibrating hormones that I was, I just joked with her about it, even though inside I was thinking, "What a ditz!"

And no, I've never met Tal, although I have met his father.

Post by **_Some Schmo** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:59 pm

truth dancer wrote: More to my particular position, if I have experienced the moon, read all the information available about the moon, understood the scientific knowledge surrounding the moon, handled moon rocks, talked to astonomers who have been to the moon, and someone tells me it is really made of cheese, how woud I choose to believe this and retain a sense of reality?

Do you think it is possible?

I only think it's possible to the extent that a person is somehow invested in believing it.

What if, before you did all the moon research you're talking about, you were raised to believe the moon was made of cheese, and actually attended a cheese moon church. You were taught by your parents that there was virtue in believing the moon was made of cheese, you donated thousands of dollars to the cheese moon church, fellowshipped for years with cheese moon devotees, and taught classes on the finer points of moon cheese? Now you've created a personal investment in cheese moon belief.

Then you're confronted with all the evidence you talked about. You can go one of two ways: you can either become a cheese moon apostate and renounce everything you've been taught about the cheese moon, or you can decide that your faith in cheese moonery is the greater virtue, and you dismiss all the scientific evidence. Basically, you've made your choice to believe in the cheese moon because of years of indoctrination and the personal investment you've made. The cheese moon is real for you.

It suddenly occurs to me that the reason most apostates don't believe that belief is a choice is that they valued the truth more than their investment in faith! Holy epiphany, Batman!

Thank you so much for talking this through with me, TD! :)

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:08 pm

Some Schmo wrote:
Scottie wrote: (My friend from Canada said that every time he told someone he was from Canada, someone would ask if he knew someone else that lived there. Like it's such a small country that everyone MUST know everyone else. People are sure stupid.)

I can totally relate to what your friend said. I've gotten this several times. I come from the west, and I remember this one girl from Nevada many years ago asking me if I knew some dude in Toronto. So I drew her a map. She was pretty hot, and being the adolescent bag of vibrating hormones that I was, I just joked with her about it, even though inside I was thinking, "What a ditz!"

And no, I've never met Tal, although I have met his father.

I didn't realize you were from Canada, Some Schmo.

I did some freelance work for a magazine based in Canada. I used to fly in an out of Toronto all the time. It's a great city! It reminds me a lot of New York from a cultural perspective...lots of music, art, theater, etc.

I've been to Nova Scotia, too, which is gorgeous! One of the magazine editors lives in a little town called Lunnenberg there. I had some of the best seafood I have EVER eaten there.

;)

OK...complete derailment...sorry.

LOL

Post by **_Some Schmo** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:20 pm

liz3564 wrote:I had some of the best seafood I have EVER eaten there.

Yep, I'm from Canada. My older brother and Bob McCue were very close friends growing up. Actually, I believe they're still pretty tight. Bob's mom used to baby sit me when I was a toddler, and I remember loving her like my own mom. She was one of the sweetest women I've can ever remember.

And yes, the #1 thing I miss about Canada is the food quality, without a doubt. Their standards are much higher than they are here in the US.

by the way, you can derail my threads any time, baby! ;)

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:27 pm

Some Schmo wrote:And yes, the #1 thing I miss about Canada is the food quality, without a doubt. Their standards are much higher than they are here in the US.

I think it's just the freshness of the fish. My editor and I went to this little pub, and had the most heavenly steamed muscles I have ever eaten in my life! The smoked salmon was fabulous, too.

I have found one place here (NC) that has semi-decent smoked salmon. I buy it at Costco, and guess where it's shipped from? Nova Scotia! LOL

Some Schmo wrote:by the way, you can derail my threads any time, baby! ;)

Thanks, sweetie! You're the cutest!

;)

Post by **_Scottie** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:56 pm

Some Schmo wrote:What if, before you did all the moon research you're talking about, you were raised to believe the moon was made of cheese, and actually attended a cheese moon church. You were taught by your parents that there was virtue in believing the moon was made of cheese, you donated thousands of dollars to the cheese moon church, fellowshipped for years with cheese moon devotees, and taught classes on the finer points of moon cheese? Now you've created a personal investment in cheese moon belief.

Don't forget that you've also been raised to believe that there is a giant space mouse that wants to eat the moon, but he can't as long as people still maintain belief in the moons cheesiness. This mouse, however, has the power of persuasion and is telling lies to the men of the world, which in turn are telling you lies about the moon being made of rock and such nonsense. So, whatever you do, don't believe the words of men. They have been deceived by the giant Jerry in the sky. After all, science is wrong all the time. In 10 years, they are going to say it's made of cheese anyways.

Post by **_Some Schmo** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:30 pm

Scottie wrote: Don't forget that you've also been raised to believe that there is a giant space mouse that wants to eat the moon, but he can't as long as people still maintain belief in the moons cheesiness. This mouse, however, has the power of persuasion and is telling lies to the men of the world, which in turn are telling you lies about the moon being made of rock and such nonsense. So, whatever you do, don't believe the words of men. They have been deceived by the giant Jerry in the sky. After all, science is wrong all the time. In 10 years, they are going to say it's made of cheese anyways.

Excellent point!

Be ye not decieved, for the master of lies is a mousy one, and seeks to destroy all that is gouda.

You also have to remember that your family is relying on you to maintain belief in the cheese moon, because you can only be saved and fed the cheese of life if all your family members believe in the cheesiness of the moon and your religion.