Re The Atonement

[_harmony]

Hey I-Man, What's up?

I am thinking of leaving the forum, it's not what I thought was. I thought that a topic could be discussed in a objective way. In this short time in the forum, my impression has changed. Like you said LDS doctrine has puzzlel pieces that don't fit. I assume that those who believe LDS doctrine are willing to discuss it in a systematic way if they participate in the Celestial forum, but I sense that people are fearful to do so. What I observed in this short time is that the points of LDS doctrine have to be propped up with the force of one's conviction, rather than standing on its own in a reasoned arguement. What's the "Beyond a shadow of a doubt" and "I testify to you" all about? Is this some kind of Mormon mind trick? This is way too time consuming. I think I have probably misunderstood something all along. Anyway, take care and keep studying. Here are some good sites that have helped me.

Some comments:

1. you obviously have no idea how the LDS church is structured, if you think Stan could in any way discuss doctrine. All doctrine is centralized in SLC at church headquarters. No one, not even a SP, can give definitive doctrine. No one on any LDS board is qualified to pontificate on doctrinal issues. None of us is called as an apostle or above. We're all just giving our opinion.

2. If you thought LDS doctrine was systematic, you have just exhibited your ignorance. LDS doctrine is fluid; it changes with every word that proceeds out of the prophets' mouths. It changes every 6 months. The only thing systematic about LDS doctrine is the assurance that it will change.

3. This forum is designed for high quality discussion, but rarely do the posters have unlimited time at their disposal. What you are asking for is impossible. Even Mormons have lives. This board, and all boards like it, serve as a hobby. If you can't deal with that, and the accompanying time limitation, then bulletin boards are not a method of communicating that you are likely to enjoy.

4. Chill. You have an inflated sense of your own worth, and it's pretty funny to read.

[_Inconceivable]

I guess I-man would be me since you pm'd me.

I admit that I lost interest on page 1 because I wasn't interested in being prostlyted. I think you were majoring in minor things being hung up as to whether Jesus paid for sins in a Garden sweating blood or dieing on a cross bleeding. If He did, He did. You just can't get me interested no matter how many Bible verse grenades you toss at me.

Stand back and see the forest from the trees. Be honest with yourself and accept that the Bible has some pretty wierd stuff in it that lacks consistancy and then accept what you can on faith.

Although this is "Mormon Discussions", you're not necessarily engaged in a forum where the participants believe in Mormonism or anything for that matter - we run the gambit of belief systems. The common thread many of us share is that we're talking about it.

However, fare thee well.

[_Gazelam]

A short answer:

The Atonement began in Gethsemane and ended with the resurrection. All of that was the Atonement. There was no single point in there where you can say "that part right there" was the Atonement. From Gethsemane to the death on the cross was the overcoming of sin, and the resurrection overcame physical death. The two together set us up to be reconciled with the Father.

[_Yoda]

A short answer:

The Atonement began in Gethsemane and ended with the resurrection. All of that was the Atonement. There was no single point in there where you can say "that part right there" was the Atonement. From Gethsemane to the death on the cross was the overcoming of sin, and the resurrection overcame physical death. The two together set us up to be reconciled with the Father.

This is how I always understood it as well.

[_sruggio]

Desire2Bwise; “I am thinking of leaving the forum, it's not what I thought was. I thought that a topic could be discussed in a objective way.”

Funny, I was also thinking of not responding anymore. You are correct, religion for me cannot be discussed in an objective way.

“I assume that those who believe LDS doctrine are willing to discuss it in a systematic way if they participate in the Celestial forum, but I sense that people are fearful to do so.”

There is nothing systematic about a belief when someone has received spiritual conformation about a point of doctrine. For me there is no fear because I do not expect you to change my beliefs, nor did I to expect to change yours.


“Like you said LDS doctrine has puzzlel pieces that don't fit “

For me the puzzle fits perfectly so I do not know which poster you are referring to.

My only objective on this forum was to possibly correct misunderstandings that people have and propagate about the church.

“What I observed in this short time is that the points of LDS doctrine have to be propped up with the force of one's conviction, rather than standing on its own in a reasoned arguement.”

Exactly, my conviction comes from what I know to be spiritual conformation. No level of reason or argument can dispel a spiritual witness.

“In this short time in the forum, my impression has changed.. What's the "Beyond a shadow of a doubt" and "I testify to you" all about?”

I assumed from your posts, that your beliefs were based on your spiritual experiences. For me, "Beyond a shadow of a doubt" and "I testify to you" come from an absolute knowledge that is based upon a witness from the spirit of the truth.

“Is this some kind of Mormon mind trick?”

No it is the way that Jesus has setup for us to know the truthfulness of the Gospel. I could quote scriptures, but I think it would fall on deaf ears.

By the way, thanks to Harmony, Inconceivable and Gazelm for your posts. I don’t even know if you are pro or con on the subject. At least you seem reasonable.

As for the Celestial Forum, if it is for intellectuals then I am in the wrong forum.

Stan