Watch Out! your daughters friend might be the Devil.

[_beastie]

Jason

I can't answer for Jersey Girl but can explain how I think it can create dependency on the church. It can be a form of the investment paradigm - the more you invest in something, the harder it is to let that thing go.

Polygamy used to be an extreme form of it - once you accepted and practiced polygamy, your investment in the church being true was huge. All the sacrifices you made for polygamy, all the isolation and exile from nonmormon society - many people just can't emotionally deal with the idea that these sacrifices might have been for naught. It's too hard to accept you gave so much of your life to an ideal that turns out to be fraudulent in some way.

When people marry very young and start having kids right away, it carries a cost in real life. It creates difficulties and burdents that you would not have otherwise had to deal with. It can just be too much, emotionally, to deal with losing belief - it's not just a loss of belief, it's realizing that the choices you made, the sacrifices you made, the lifestyle that, in some ways, "traps" you, was for naught.

Obviously some people with all these investments still lose faith and just deal with the angst that causes - you can see a lot of that angst on RFM. (of course, according to believers, exbelievers have no right to any angst, they're just playing victim) But I do think that investing serious lifestyle choices with real costs in real life does increase the likelihood the individual just won't be willing to even CONSIDER the church might not be true. It's just too threatening, could make your sacrifices appear pointless.

My boyfriend's brother is a good example, in my opinion - he married young and had eight kids. He also gave up his dreams to have a career in the musical field due to his early familial responsibilities. He reacts with personal anger towards my boyfriend's loss of faith. I think it's too threatening to even consider, because of how pointless his sacrifices would be if the church turned out to not be true.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason

I can't answer for Jersey Girl but can explain how I think it can create dependency on the church. It can be a form of the investment paradigm - the more you invest in something, the harder it is to let that thing go.

Polygamy used to be an extreme form of it - once you accepted and practiced polygamy, your investment in the church being true was huge. All the sacrifices you made for polygamy, all the isolation and exile from nonmormon society - many people just can't emotionally deal with the idea that these sacrifices might have been for naught. It's too hard to accept you gave so much of your life to an ideal that turns out to be fraudulent in some way.

When people marry very young and start having kids right away, it carries a cost in real life. It creates difficulties and burdents that you would not have otherwise had to deal with. It can just be too much, emotionally, to deal with losing belief - it's not just a loss of belief, it's realizing that the choices you made, the sacrifices you made, the lifestyle that, in some ways, "traps" you, was for naught.

Obviously some people with all these investments still lose faith and just deal with the angst that causes - you can see a lot of that angst on RFM. (of course, according to believers, exbelievers have no right to any angst, they're just playing victim) But I do think that investing serious lifestyle choices with real costs in real life does increase the likelihood the individual just won't be willing to even CONSIDER the church might not be true. It's just too threatening, could make your sacrifices appear pointless.

My boyfriend's brother is a good example, in my opinion - he married young and had eight kids. He also gave up his dreams to have a career in the musical field due to his early familial responsibilities. He reacts with personal anger towards my boyfriend's loss of faith. I think it's too threatening to even consider, because of how pointless his sacrifices would be if the church turned out to not be true.

Yes I see your point and essentially agree. I call it getting on the Mormon cookie cutter program. Of course going on a mission, getting married in the temple soon there after and starting having kids ties one into the LDS culture very rapidly and with strong ties. I though she meant by dependent that it was a money type need.

As noted, I think many Mormons that go this route end up fairly successful in their work, in their marriages (of course there are those that look successful from the outside but really are not all that happy) with their families and kids and so on. But it is a hard road at times.

I have had this theory and I think it is true. When I look at my marriage and family, my wife and I starter with pretty much nothing. I would rank our household income now in the top 5% range. We are not filthy rich but are pretty comfortable and they highest earning years we have ahead of us for at least 18 more years or so. Everything we have we built together really. I was about 8 months off a mission, when we married. She is a year older so she was 23 and I was 22. We had our first kid a year later then two quickly after that. We had one more after our next youngest turned 9, and that by choice. We just wanted to have another kid, partly cause we thought is might be a great experience to have on not so close in age to the others and while we were not as poor as we were when we started. But I think by growing together we are closer then many who wait and build a financial base independent of each other. I guess both have pros and cons.

Anyway, we were very active all along, always served and our social circle was made up of other LDS young couples just like us. Many are still close friends. So one does build a strong tie by going this route and is tied into the program so to speak.

Now all that said, I do have some anger about having this drilled into us so heavy and often wish I would have thought a bit more independently. There is a lot I would have liked to have done that I did not do. I would have liked to get a law degree but by the time I finished my BS degree I was 28 and needed to start paying my way in life and getting us above a very low income level. I would have liked to travel some either on my own or with my wife before kids came. I would like to have about $400,000 more in my 401k then I have now. On the other hand life has been pretty good over all

[_Maxrep]

When people marry very young and start having kids right away, it carries a cost in real life. It creates difficulties and burdents that you would not have otherwise had to deal with. It can just be too much, emotionally, to deal with losing belief - it's not just a loss of belief, it's realizing that the choices you made, the sacrifices you made, the lifestyle that, in some ways, "traps" you, was for naught.

Some very insightful points, Beastie!

No one could have imagined the level of personal pride that can be involved with the vigorous defense of poor life decisions.

[_Jason Bourne]

When people marry very young and start having kids right away, it carries a cost in real life. It creates difficulties and burdents that you would not have otherwise had to deal with. It can just be too much, emotionally, to deal with losing belief - it's not just a loss of belief, it's realizing that the choices you made, the sacrifices you made, the lifestyle that, in some ways, "traps" you, was for naught.

Some very insightful points, Beastie!

No one could have imagined the level of personal pride that can be involved with the vigorous defense of poor life decisions.

I am not sure I would call them poor decisions. Again, I think the track record shows that the success rate is fairly high for such marriages both for sticking as well as long term economic sustenance. However, there is some truth to the idea that when one goes that route, develops social ties, tithes, gives time, etc. one is less likely to leave the fold.

[_beastie]

Whether or not the decision to marry young, have children right away, pay ten percent of your income to the church - result in a successful life or not has a lot of variables, one of which is probably the part of the country you live in. I live in the south, which is historically economically more depressed than other parts of the US, and the LDS families I knew usually struggled financially. (as I did) The other is, of course, what sort of degree you pursued, if you pursued one. Some degrees are just financially more rewarding than others.

[_Jason Bourne]

Whether or not the decision to marry young, have children right away, pay ten percent of your income to the church - result in a successful life or not has a lot of variables, one of which is probably the part of the country you live in. I live in the south, which is historically economically more depressed than other parts of the US, and the LDS families I knew usually struggled financially. (as I did) The other is, of course, what sort of degree you pursued, if you pursued one. Some degrees are just financially more rewarding than others.

I am sure that a number of things play into it. However, looking and my stake, ward, other friends I have in other parts of the country, and so on, lends credence to the fact that most are relatively well off and doing as well if not better then others in their age group.

Of course this is all anecdotal. I would love to see if there is any study to show what success rates are had among LDS who marry young.

Never the less many propose that doing this is preliminary to financial duress and failure. My experience is that this is not necessarily the case. My guess is I hang out and no more LDS families then you do.

And by the way, the area of the country I live in is about as economically depressed as they come. As for the south I am curious. Much of the southeast is prospering and has been accepting perhaps Mississippi and Alabama.

[_beastie]

It all depends on where you're at in the south. If you live in smaller communities, you're in for a tough time. It also depends on what base the town was built. Many industries have moved overseas, particularly clothing manufacturing. In larger cities, you'll have more success.

There are certainly wards that are populated by people who are well off. In a neighboring city where my family lives, that has enough members to have several wards, there is one ward that is obviously better off than the others. In my hometown, there weren't enough members for more than one ward, so we had people from all sorts of neighborhoods and financial backgrounds. Many struggled. Some were well off, upper middle class. But the majority were not.

[_Jason Bourne]

It all depends on where you're at in the south. If you live in smaller communities, you're in for a tough time. It also depends on what base the town was built. Many industries have moved overseas, particularly clothing manufacturing. In larger cities, you'll have more success.

There are certainly wards that are populated by people who are well off. In a neighboring city where my family lives, that has enough members to have several wards, there is one ward that is obviously better off than the others. In my hometown, there weren't enough members for more than one ward, so we had people from all sorts of neighborhoods and financial backgrounds. Many struggled. Some were well off, upper middle class. But the majority were not.

I think you examples and mine really demonstrate that early marriage and having kids quick does not mean one will end up financially distressed or successful, per say. It really depends on a lot of factors and most of all the individuals involved. Same it true of those who may put off marriage and kids.. What I will agree with is regardless of the outcome marrying young and having kids quick makes it a lot more work to succeed financially and perhaps even in the relationship.

[_beastie]

I think you examples and mine really demonstrate that early marriage and having kids quick does not mean one will end up financially distressed or successful, per say. It really depends on a lot of factors and most of all the individuals involved. Same it true of those who may put off marriage and kids.. What I will agree with is regardless of the outcome marrying young and having kids quick makes it a lot more work to succeed financially and perhaps even in the relationship.

Yes, I agree.