To me, the experience is what it is all about. This is the gate. It's almost as if Bednar, SWK and their brothers are right there but won't enter because they are "the good guys" and have no need to enter that gate - the gate for the real sinners.
Maybe it's true in this instance that those that can't do, teach.
Inconceivable, I marvel that you know that Youth Minister and yet have not given yourself fully to that way. You choose more to disbelieve rather than believe even though you see the truths of the Book of Mormon so well.
More than thirty-seven years ago I was eighteen. The Lord took me by the hand and drew me unto a real baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost experience. Before this I was completely inactive for two years. So I was not eating and drinking damnation to my soul each week at church. I think that was very important.
The devilish side of the natural man will profess great zeal for righteousness and put on the face of grace and perfectness. Such will decieve the very elect. They hope perhaps that they really are so good that God cannot tell them nay. For Christ's sake, that he suffered not in vain, nay it is. I hope some few of faith will be moved to repent.
Shall I find faith on the earth?
Where is my Zion?
Gazelam wrote:In the Mormon faith, being "saved" is a lifelong process.
As for being "born again", there are those that have been converts to the church, but many of the General authorities are lifelong members that have never relaly needed a "born again" experience. They are simply immersed in the spirit all their lives. I know that sounds odd, but how many on this board were raised in the church, but have trouble recognizing the Spirit merely because they have been around it all their lives?
I was guilty of this myself. Growing up not knowing what I already knew. I have had a "born again" experience, recieving a powerful witness of the Spirit, I've mentioned it here before, but I would not say that I was "saved" at that moment, merely shown where the path is.
I am sure General Authorities are the same way.
I hope that helps. I'll keep an eye out for testimonies of the "turning point" for a General Authority. I think Elder Holland offered up one of those in his PBS interview.
Gaz
read Mosiah 1-4 and tell me that those who listened to King Benjamin had a life long born again experience. Then read Chapter 27 and tell me that Alma t he Younger had a life long born again experience.
James Muir wrote:But the question I ask comes down to this:
Bednar (and all the other GA's), if it works for everyone, then it must have worked for you. Please tell us about your personal and most sacred experience with it (and I will tell you mine).
(crickets chirping)
Inconceivable...........I feel like shouting halleluia all the time since I read your post.
There is a profound reason why Mormons are hindered if not completely prohibited from accomplishing this marvelous experience with Christ the Lord. It centers upon spiritual incompetence in the administration of the restored gospel. Christ recieved a commandment from the Father which he first conveyed to the Nephites in 3 Nephi 18:28-33.
The precise manner in which the gospel is to be administered is not followed by the present LDS administration. The results is that the condemnation of the Father falls upon all Mormons immediately after they are baptized into the Church. Because the Church takes lightly the things that are written in the Book of Mormon and only say and don't do according to that which is written (D&C 84:50-59) they can only pollute the holy land and cannot be sanctified.
After a child has partaken of the sacrament unworthily for a couple of years they are fully condemned even though they are not responsible. The guilt lays at the feet of the leaders. However the eternal consequenses are everyones. This is no small calamity and tragedy. All LDS are unworthy to partake of the sacrament and even higher ordinances including ordination to the priesthood if they have not been baptized in the name of Christ.
Notice also that Moroni was precise about this as well telling us in Chapter 6 of his own book that they were not baptized save they brough forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it and that was a broken heart and contrite spirit and witnessed that they had truly repented of all their sins. and they were watched to see that they took the name of Christ with determination right up to being wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost before their names were taken and they were numbered. This is what Christ commanded. And contrary to LDS tradition of a lifelong pursuit this is always up front and required as the first works. You did not fully join the Church until ithe gospel was accomplished according to the pattern required.
What it means to be baptized in the name of Christ is to be baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost. This is the baptism only Christ was to administer and hence it bears only his name. We become his children. Water baptism is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. When a person comes unto Christ to take his name upon them, they seek a new creation at his hand,and to be raised by the power of the atonement of Christ to a state of righteousness. Exactly what the Lord told Alma the younger what every man and woman must do to enter the kingdom of God. (Mosiah 27:25-26)This is not a lifelong process and indeed cannot be. For how can it be a lifelong process if it is prerequisite to partaking of the sacrament which is to be administered every time the saints gather together and it must be done before you name is taken.
This manner of judgment Old Testament the line and righteousness to the plummet will eventually sweep asway the refuge of lies and teach doctrine to those that error. The very elect are decieved on this point and must mightily repent or be swept off in the good time of the Lord.
Where in the world did INCONCEIVABLE come to this wisdom. I have not found the same in all my travails amonst the Mormons.
James
Have you read Stephen Robinson's book Believing Christ? If not you should. You will find his thoughts echo yours some what.
Have you read Stephen Robinson's book Believing Christ? If not you should. You will find his thoughts echo yours some what.
Jason,
A friend gave me another book this year:
John Pontius
Following the Light of Christ into his Presence
Cedar Fort Publishing
Find a need and fill it they say. It would seem to me that he wanted Mormons to own the spiritual credits the scriptures account of. He was validating the process and steering it in a new direction. The tone of the book was deplorable self-vaunting and worse it encouraged you to forsake scripture and follow a familiar spirit that would voice in your ear if you desired it and learned to obey it. I was at first glad that he was willing to at least talk about all the points of salvation as if he owned them. Sadly, I believe he was giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. The science of true religion requires that you repeat the same results that every witness throughout all time ever did, precisely as the scripture show. After you know the Lord the scriptures are opened and you see the kingdom of God throughout. Anything more or less comes of evil.
I will check out the book you refer to.
Thanks
Shall I find faith on the earth?
Where is my Zion?
Inconceivable, could be your expectations of a Mormon's expression of Christ-identity is unrealistic? You say:
What he did not specifically testify of was this miracle actually occurring in his own life.
Be aware--i'm sure you are--Bednar, as many here are, is LDS. Not Pentecostal, "Holy-Roller" or any other sect where vocal emotion plays a major role in convincing each other of their Spirituality via THE personal experience.
My beginning religious conditioning was in the United Church of Canada. Not a Fundie, Evan setting by any stretch of imagination. Never did i hear about being "Saved". I think Gaz might have a realistic take with the general LDS stance re THE moment of fire, so to speak.
As in my original United Church conditioning, i never really experienced THAT conditioning in LDSism either. Do you think that "...miracle..." essential to living a good-life? If so, why? According to the supposed teachings of Jesus, a person is not to shout-from-the-house-tops as the Pharisees... Could be one thing Mormon's have right, eh? :-) Warm regards, Roger
Roger Morrison wrote:Inconceivable, could be your expectations of a Mormon's expression of Christ-identity is unrealistic? You say:
What he did not specifically testify of was this miracle actually occurring in his own life.
Be aware--I'm sure you are--Bednar, as many here are, is LDS. Not Pentecostal, "Holy-Roller" or any other sect where vocal emotion plays a major role in convincing each other of their Spirituality via THE personal experience.
My beginning religious conditioning was in the United Church of Canada. Not a Fundie, Evan setting by any stretch of imagination. Never did I hear about being "Saved". I think Gaz might have a realistic take with the general LDS stance re THE moment of fire, so to speak.
As in my original United Church conditioning, I never really experienced THAT conditioning in LDSism either. Do you think that "...miracle..." essential to living a good-life? If so, why? According to the supposed teachings of Jesus, a person is not to shout-from-the-house-tops as the Pharisees... Could be one thing Mormon's have right, eh? :-) Warm regards, Roger
You have some good points, Roger. My emphasis is that real world examples of the Book of Mormon prophets don't exist in the speech patterns of the prophets today. This is not that.
The experiences of Enos and others were not Holy Roller experiences, they were simple and peaceful in nature, yet essential to their salvation. Are we any better than they are? What conclusions might we surmise from these events if we were never to know of a modern day prophet? What would we seek in order to obtain peace and how would we recognize it when it arrived? Why would God change His approach for today if He gave us a book intended as the example?
That "miracle" is not essential to living a good life. But to witness the true nature of the atonement I would consider it essential. Otherwise we speak in the third person. We know someone that has experienced this. Why haven't we? Like I said before, confession to a Bishop (and even his forgiveness) does not set us right with God until He has healed us. You'd think that miracle would be noticeable. At least I thought it was.
Hi Incon, you describe yourself as "disifected...ready to resign"... I wonder why? As you say:
... My emphasis is that real world examples of the Book of Mormon prophets don't exist in the speech patterns of the prophets today. This is not that.
The experiences of Enos and others were not Holy Roller experiences, they were simple and peaceful in nature, yet essential to their salvation. Are we any better than they are? What conclusions might we surmise from these events if we were never to know of a modern day prophet? What would we seek in order to obtain peace and how would we recognize it when it arrived? Why would God change His approach for today if He gave us a book intended as the example?
That "miracle" is not essential to living a good life. But to witness the true nature of the atonement I would consider it essential. Otherwise we speak in the third person. We know someone that has experienced this. Why haven't we? Like I said before, confession to a Bishop (and even his forgiveness) does not set us right with God until He has healed us. You'd think that miracle would be noticeable. At least I thought it was.
You write in terms of belief in the Book of Mormon? "Real world examples"? "...essential to salvation..."? "...modern day prophet..."? "...true nature of the atonement..."? "...Bishop...forgiveness..."? "...miracle..."?
Respectfully Bro, it appears to me you have a LOT to resolve. Your indoctrinations have been VERY deeply ingrained. What do you think you/we need to be "...healed..." of/from? Warm regards, Roger
[quote= According to the supposed teachings of Jesus, a person is not to shout-from-the-house-tops as the Pharisees... Could be one thing Mormon's have right, eh? :-) Warm regards, Roger[/quote]
The first elders of the restoration were commanded of Christ to lift up their voices both loud and long, day and night and to not let the inhabitants of the earth rest as they speak with the voice of a Trump to make straight the way of the Lord. Alma certainly was not shy about it. The Holy Ghost is to give utterance and he would not be shy either. A man speaks out of the good treasures of his heart. If its in there it should manifest.
Shall I find faith on the earth?
Where is my Zion?