21 Unconvincing Arguments for God

[_mav]

Keene's right. I don't do the whole web discussion thing. Mainly because of the difficulity of conveying a meaning in a manner that is both concise and meaningful without being misconstrued.
But there's always a time to break a rule.

To James Muir: read the last sentance of my post. . . . and then read it again. I'm no atheist. I'm ignostic. Simply put, I think the question of god is valueless until you define exactly what god is. I claim atheist from time to time to make a point. Do you believe in Horus? In Zeus? I don't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignostic

On Fighting: I don't fight belief in god. Nor do most atheists, scientists, or most members of Mensa. Better said, I laugh at absurdity and have no shame in pointing it out. Part of being human is to question your own and others beliefs, in a true fashion, without regard for what you might have to lose to find what is true.

To Jersey Girl: You caught me in oversimplifying. Neurotheology is simply a group of people (scientists hopefully) that are studying what has been known and tested in the scientific community for some time. Basically this, shock a part of the brain, get results. This area of the brain is only different in that you typically have a spiritual experience of some kind when you shock it. That's the point.

As for the rest of your points, if Keene's up for it I'll turn them over to him.

Also, to clarify, "God" vs. "Spiritual/Love". The question I propose is this: Is it possible to experience wonderstruck awe at the incomprehensible mysteries of the universe without attributing it to a singular god?

Or

as much as I hate to define things. God = noun = object. Love = verb (tough ground I know but bear with me here) If you love someone you're taking action. One of my favorite stories is about a husband and wife that went in for couples counseling. The husband said "I don't know what to do, I just don't love my wife." The counselor replied "Then love her!" "But you don't understand! I DON'T LOVE HER!" To which the counselor said "Love isn't just always there no matter what, it is a verb. It requires action. If you don't love your wife now, love her, love her without needing a reason why or thinking she needs to deserve it. Just love."

Just as a noise in the dark can be misconstrued to be a burgler so can the feelings of love and spirituality be misconstrued to think that a god exists or wants you to purge the earth of a certain race. The feeling was right, the action and the images created from it might not be.

Keene can finish the rest of that off, he know's where it's going.

p.s. there went my hope of being as laconic as possible[/url]

[_James Muir]

To James Muir: read the last sentance of my post. . . . and then read it again. I'm no atheist. I'm ignostic. Simply put, I think the question of god is valueless until you define exactly what god is. I claim atheist from time to time to make a point. Do you believe in Horus? In Zeus? I don't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignostic

On Fighting: I don't fight belief in god. Nor do most atheists, scientists, or most members of Mensa. Better said, I laugh at absurdity and have no shame in pointing it out. Part of being human is to question your own and others beliefs, in a true fashion, without regard for what you might have to lose to find what is true.

[/url]

I failed to read the last line. Sorry.

The science is there for any to work who will. Science should crave any method that proves itself with repeatable results. That is the celebration of it all, the thrill of discovery and proof.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a precise and well known science abundantly attested to by witnesses (scientist saints) seperate and apart from one another by hundreds of years throughout all time. When it is done right repeatable results are experienced and God manifests himself thereby and the saint/scientist comes away from his efforts with a discovery and a proof.

What perplexes eveyone is that the lab required for this science is within our own hearts and minds. That keeps it from the world and requires everyone to do the science for themself so that the works of God can be accomplished upon every living soul. That is God's right. He does not owe us better. If you want to prove God true then do the works that will allow God to adjust and sanctify and make those changes upon your creation that he requires that you might be free to advance throughout eternity.

When that kind of results are experienced you are well beyond brain chemistry to account for it. It proves itself as Almighty and you can say thereby that you know God. Have all the fun you like with the many varieties of false gospel science. Their existence does not prove that a real and true science does not exist out there, somewhere in time.

I am a living saint of the same science of the gospel of Jesus Christ that has been proven true down throughout all time. I can tell you everything you need to know if you want to prove God exists. Well, DO YA?

[_keene]

I failed to read the last line. Sorry.

The science is there for any to work who will. Science should crave any method that proves itself with repeatable results. That is the celebration of it all, the thrill of discovery and proof.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a precise and well known science abundantly attested to by witnesses (scientist saints) seperate and apart from one another by hundreds of years throughout all time. When it is done right repeatable results are experienced and God manifests himself thereby and the saint/scientist comes away from his efforts with a discovery and a proof.

What perplexes eveyone is that the lab required for this science is within our own hearts and minds. That keeps it from the world and requires everyone to do the science for themself so that the works of God can be accomplished upon every living soul. That is God's right. He does not owe us better. If you want to prove God true then do the works that will allow God to adjust and sanctify and make those changes upon your creation that he requires that you might be free to advance throughout eternity.

When that kind of results are experienced you are well beyond brain chemistry to account for it. It proves itself as Almighty and you can say thereby that you know God. Have all the fun you like with the many varieties of false gospel science. Their existence does not prove that a real and true science does not exist out there, somewhere in time.

I am a living saint of the same science of the gospel of Jesus Christ that has been proven true down throughout all time. I can tell you everything you need to know if you want to prove God exists. Well, DO YA?

Strangly, I think Mav's response to Jersey Girl fits here as well. Requote!

Also, to clarify, "God" vs. "Spiritual/Love". The question I propose is this: Is it possible to experience wonderstruck awe at the incomprehensible mysteries of the universe without attributing it to a singular god?

Or

as much as I hate to define things. God = noun = object. Love = verb (tough ground I know but bear with me here) If you love someone you're taking action. One of my favorite stories is about a husband and wife that went in for couples counseling. The husband said "I don't know what to do, I just don't love my wife." The counselor replied "Then love her!" "But you don't understand! I DON'T LOVE HER!" To which the counselor said "Love isn't just always there no matter what, it is a verb. It requires action. If you don't love your wife now, love her, love her without needing a reason why or thinking she needs to deserve it. Just love."

Just as a noise in the dark can be misconstrued to be a burgler so can the feelings of love and spirituality be misconstrued to think that a god exists or wants you to purge the earth of a certain race. The feeling was right, the action and the images created from it might not be.

To elaborate a little more.... This "saintly science" you suggest definitely WOULD prove god to one seeking it, I'm sure. But if I were to do the same experiments, but with the belief that my shoe was radiating pure love, and telling me to act in such a manner, I would prove, beyond all doubt, that my shoe was the incarnation of God! And why not? If the results of caring and loving action come out, whether from my shoe, from your God, from Buddha, or from that guy on the corner who yells alot, it's still good action.

Basically, I'm afraid that the proof you suggest would more likely prove that we're all capable of self-inflicted schitzophrenia, rather than in proof of a God.

[_Zoidberg]

The fact that atheist exist is proof that there is a God.
How do rational, evidence only people hate something that does not exist?
If they redicule faith and faith is false then they are preoccupied resisting nothing and since these are rational and evidence only people faith must be real therefore God is real, for faith cannot be real unless the object of that faith is real.
So the fact that atheist exist is proof that there is a God.

Talk about capricious logic (or lack thereof) and irrational vilification. How many strawmen can a faithful believer construct?

That said, I'm actually a non-dualist, which means I think that matter/spirit is an illusory dichotomy, and treat all my experiences with equal skepticism, even the most mundane ones. You never know, we might all be living in the Matrix or something.

[_Yoda]

You never know, we might all be living in the Matrix or something.

Hey, Zoid. If you enjoy studying the parallels of Mormonism and the Matrix, you may enjoy this thread from the MDB archives:

Matrix and Mormonism thread

[_Zoidberg]

You never know, we might all be living in the Matrix or something.

Hey, Zoid. If you enjoy studying the parallels of Mormonism and the Matrix, you may enjoy this thread from the MDB archives:

Matrix and Mormonism thread

Hilarious! Too bad I arrived too late and all the good roles have been taken.

I would like to be Cypher and reclaim the blissful ignorance I once used to have. But agent Joseph Smith just isn't offering up a reasonable bargain, so I've decided to hold out for better offers.

Incidentally, I was referring to the whole so-called "reality", but Mormonism as a paradigm can certainly be compared to the Matrix.

[_James Muir]

To elaborate a little more.... This "saintly science" you suggest definitely WOULD prove god to one seeking it, I'm sure. But if I were to do the same experiments, but with the belief that my shoe was radiating pure love, and telling me to act in such a manner, I would prove, beyond all doubt, that my shoe was the incarnation of God! And why not? If the results of caring and loving action come out, whether from my shoe, from your God, from Buddha, or from that guy on the corner who yells alot, it's still good action.

Basically, I'm afraid that the proof you suggest would more likely prove that we're all capable of self-inflicted schitzophrenia, rather than in proof of a God.

His thoughts are higher than our thought and his ways are higher than our ways. There is no posssiblility that you could imagine what it is like to be visited by the power of God. And never could you give to yourself in your wildest imagination the changes to your heart, might, mind and strength that God needs to accomplish upon you. For his own purposes and not for your salvation only he works his work and you will not comprehend them fully the rest of your life. This comes upon you in an instant and is gone just as soon. Medically speaking a diagnosis of mental illness needs to have a manifestation of symptoms that last a week or two. Everyone who loses their temper is not insane.

[_keene]

To elaborate a little more.... This "saintly science" you suggest definitely WOULD prove god to one seeking it, I'm sure. But if I were to do the same experiments, but with the belief that my shoe was radiating pure love, and telling me to act in such a manner, I would prove, beyond all doubt, that my shoe was the incarnation of God! And why not? If the results of caring and loving action come out, whether from my shoe, from your God, from Buddha, or from that guy on the corner who yells alot, it's still good action.

Basically, I'm afraid that the proof you suggest would more likely prove that we're all capable of self-inflicted schitzophrenia, rather than in proof of a God.

His thoughts are higher than our thought and his ways are higher than our ways. There is no posssiblility that you could imagine what it is like to be visited by the power of God. And never could you give to yourself in your wildest imagination the changes to your heart, might, mind and strength that God needs to accomplish upon you. For his own purposes and not for your salvation only he works his work and you will not comprehend them fully the rest of your life. This comes upon you in an instant and is gone just as soon. Medically speaking a diagnosis of mental illness needs to have a manifestation of symptoms that last a week or two. Everyone who loses their temper is not insane.

But there's no possible way to prove that the "visitation" was a true Godly experience. I have had many experiences that could very well be described as you have, simply unimaginable, dramatically changing my life forever. But did these experiences come from an unprovable external source? I could very easily believe such, but instead I chose to believe in the power of our own minds.

However, I'm quite concerned about your statement "And never could you give to yourself in your wildest imagination the changes to your heart, might, mind and strength that God needs to accomplish upon you."

First off, what a wonderful post-hypnotic suggestion that is! By stating it this way, you almost garuntee that no one can make a change unless they do it YOUR way. And then, even if they do make the change on their own, your suggestion will make them think the change wasn't truely theirs, that it came from an external source, and thus, unrepeatable.

I am spiritually offended by statements like that. Any statement that would try to limit the capabilities of Man is, in my mind, pure evil.

[_James Muir]

I am spiritually offended by statements like that. Any statement that would try to limit the capabilities of Man is, in my mind, pure evil.

So spiritually speaking, to you, man has limitless capabilities precisely as he is. Such a notion edifiies you I suppose. Rather grandious I'd say.
2 Nephi 9:42 no doubt carries considerable weight in these parts, well, it does with me:

42. And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdomk and their riches--yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the dephts of humility, he will not open unto them.

When God visits the world in a day of recompense to remove all the non-meek from off the earth, so that the earth might rest for a season, I can see how you would consider something like that pure evil. You get all eternity to vent. Then, next time, after you excercise faith in God and opt out of hell to begin all over again, first losing all the independent gifts of God that seperated you from all light and truth into an individual, you will go back to the light to someday heed the call of your Eternal Father to come out and recieve an independent sphere of existence, you may think twice about the value of meekness.

Or, better put, the fear of God is the beginning of understanding.

[_keene]

I am spiritually offended by statements like that. Any statement that would try to limit the capabilities of Man is, in my mind, pure evil.

So spiritually speaking, to you, man has limitless capabilities precisely as he is. Such a notion edifiies you I suppose. Rather grandious I'd say.
2 Nephi 9:42 no doubt carries considerable weight in these parts, well, it does with me:

42. And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdomk and their riches--yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the dephts of humility, he will not open unto them.

When God visits the world in a day of recompense to remove all the non-meek from off the earth, so that the earth might rest for a season, I can see how you would consider something like that pure evil. You get all eternity to vent. Then, next time, after you excercise faith in God and opt out of hell to begin all over again, first losing all the independent gifts of God that seperated you from all light and truth into an individual, you will go back to the light to someday heed the call of your Eternal Father to come out and recieve an independent sphere of existence, you may think twice about the value of meekness.

Or, better put, the fear of God is the beginning of understanding.

And we come full circle:

(8) Fear of Hell - The idea of hell strikes atheists as a scam – an attempt to get people to believe through fear what they cannot believe through reason and evidence.

The only way to approach this “logically” is to find the religion that punishes you the worst for disbelief, and then believe that religion. Okay, you will have saved yourself from the worst punishment that exists – if that religion is the “true” religion.

But if that religion (with its punishment) is not the true religion – if the religion that has the second or third worst punishment for disbelief is the true religion – then you have saved yourself nothing.

So, which religion’s hell is the true hell. Without evidence, we can never know.

As for meekness...

Well, I see nothing wrong with being meek, or humble. Just because you're limitless is no reason to brag -- everyone else is just as limitless as you are! The position of meekness or humility is one of servitude to the unlimited potential of others. It's like giving them a boost to reach who they are. I'm a fan of the meek, although I'm not quite ready to join their ranks just yet.