GC Talk Referring to Being Born Again

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_James Muir
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:16 am

Post by _James Muir »

Jason Bourne wrote:
James

Have you read Stephen Robinson's book Believing Christ? If not you should. You will find his thoughts echo yours some what.


Last night I looked up a BYU Devotional speech he gave in the early Ninties with the same title that refered to some of the same topics of his book no doubt. This is not anything like what John Pontius was writing about but Stephen Robinson has the same objective to own spiritual credits and apply them successfully.

His rationale is a successful mind adjustment that a person can willfully engage to bring balance to their lives. It admits a better posture before the Lord that we are not saving ourselves with Church Perfection. But it remains only a mental realization that adjusts a person's perspective and allies with the greatness of Christ as a given.

Someone honest in heart would not assume the grace of Jesus Christ. He would seek to come unto the Lord as if he had no right at all until Christ bestowed that in recieving his broken heart and contrite spirit covenant forged in the depths of humility where you approach God and cry out for mercy, that his grace might come upon you.

Robinson's mistake is to take the atonement of Christ as if already applied, as if it were a failed recognition that only needs to be acknowledged to become effective. This is the same GOD FROM A BOX that fundamental Christians wield and set their hearts upon.

Some fella, a TV Evangelist gave out to a rock concert size crowd that since the Lord was gracious to Hezikiah and gave him an abundant repreive from death therefore God will be abundant to everyone in the audience and that they can expect the same. The people eat this up and would probably come back with twice as many people next week to hear such good news. Why? Everything God has ever done somehow applies to them.
Why? Just because some sayer has the pompousity to say it. And a Halleluia! Praise God! Jesus Saves. So we are all saved just accept it. Praise God, Halleluia!

Inconcievable's good friend who is a Youth Minister takes this same line and runs with it with all his heart aflame. Praise God! Thank you Jesus. Praise God! These kind of mind games people play with God are spiritual hysterics insisting they are in control and God is just a fauset they own to open unto themselves in whatever amount they please. This is not the science of redemption that has proven itselve down throughout all time in the lives of the saints of the ages. It will collapes under its own weight of heady highmindedness that is just as Pharasitical as those who were certain that they were the chosen of God in Ancient Israel. They were certain because they applied it to themselves in their own way and following after their own conciet.

If the consistent hallmarks represented in all scripture are not present then the science is flawed and people should be honest enough to admit a false construct. How dearly and firmly people set their hearts upon delusional religion will manifest in how violently and hatefully they will resist correction. They might even seek to crucify the Lord of Light just to prove to themselves how right they are.
Shall I find faith on the earth?
Where is my Zion?
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi James, to a great degree you are a yet little known quantity, or quality. As all new posters are on entry to the site. Welcome to the group! Maybe a bit-of-bio would remedy guessing about you?

At this point, from your references, i take it you take the Book of Mormon to equal the New Testament in purpose and historicity? OK, but that does shift from common ground to varriance, often making meaningful discussion barely possible... Such as you state below:

The first elders of the restoration were commanded of Christ to lift up their voices both loud and long, day and night and to not let the inhabitants of the earth rest as they speak with the voice of a Trump to make straight the way of the Lord. Alma certainly was not shy about it. The Holy Ghost is to give utterance and he would not be shy either. A man speaks out of the good treasures of his heart. If its in there it should manifest. (Bold added by RM)



I agree with what i 'bolded'. And, men speak out of the trash in their hearts as well. In most cases either is manifest/on-display before they "speak". Their speech simply confirms the content of their figuritive "heart". I respectfully suggest that is/was the reason Christ encouraged quiet example in the New Testament. By their fruits...not "...by Trump's and loud and long voices..."

Question: which takes precedence with you, generally speaking, the Book of Mormon or the New Testament? Warm regards, Roger
_James Muir
_Emeritus
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:16 am

Post by _James Muir »

Roger Morrison wrote:Hi James, to a great degree you are a yet little known quantity, or quality. As all new posters are on entry to the site. Welcome to the group! Maybe a bit-of-bio would remedy guessing about you?


Fifth generation LDS from both sides. My spiritual bio is quite unbelievable, except for my wife and kids my secular bio really stinks. Barely graduated from High School yet I got in MENSA for a couple weeks after I dropped out of straight A college, at the Lord's insistence. I have been set up to take apart and comprehend all the mistakes made since the restoration by the LDS Church. Hopefully, so that a real and true Zion might emerge unspotted. C&E sure 1987. Excommunicated to my great relief in 1991. Church gave me migraines every week from the hatred the Mormons cramped up with as they choked on my explosive scriptural insights tthe likes of which had never before sounded in their ears. Five great kids, son just joined the Marines. Working stiff making just enough to not survive well.

Roger Morrison wrote:Question: which takes precedence with you, generally speaking, the Book of Mormon or the New Testament? Warm regards, Roger


Book of Abraham is a favorite. Really! But all LDS Standard works are equally great in my mind and heart. I do not blush at the mocking of the Book of Mormon. We are here to be tested and the devil ran amock in the new world for hundreds of years setting the stage for future generations to not believe the Record he knew could defeat him. No account exists detailing what the three-hundred years of Zion was like to know just how much evidence there should be. I can imagine all kinds of possibilities.

Regardless how well naysayers might stive to reign in my faith I have mounted up as upon eagles wings to ride the high places of the earth and shall always triumph. Faith is pushed along by the good imagination of the heart and I have a faith that has brought together the end from the beginning. Twenty-five years ago I slowed down and stopped telling people the new things I was uncovering. They cannot begin to go there. Not until they do the first works. Not until Zion begins for real. And I know, I know to you I must be a horse's ass. Can you say that up here in the highest kingdom?
Shall I find faith on the earth?
Where is my Zion?
_Inconceivable
_Emeritus
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:44 am

Post by _Inconceivable »

Roger Morrison wrote:Hi Incon, you describe yourself as "disifected...ready to resign"... I wonder why?

You write in terms of belief in the Book of Mormon? "Real world examples"? "...essential to salvation..."? "...modern day prophet..."? "...true nature of the atonement..."? "...Bishop...forgiveness..."? "...miracle..."?

Respectfully Bro, it appears to me you have a LOT to resolve. Your indoctrinations have been VERY deeply ingrained. What do you think you/we need to be "...healed..." of/from? Warm regards, Roger


Well Roger, I had to think about the answer for a day. The short of it is that the only thread of belief that remains is that I have been forgiven once by one from the unseen world. One that I used to call my Heavenly Father. I also gave priesthood blessings where thoughts and impressions flowed through me beyond my ability to create on my own. Good loving, peaceful wholesome things.

I know the Book of Mormon. I've dedicated my life to studying and understanding how I might emulate it's spiritual aspects. I think that for the most part, it is a roadmap that would encourage a peaceable walk. Although I now believe it to be a work of fiction, it has been an effective teacher to my family in this respect.

The healing I now seek is reconciliation between myself and the God that has been pitching me clues that a corrupt and immoral organization is the path to eternal happiness. Joseph Smith committed telestrial acts that remain unforgiven. I refuse to believe such a human was capable of qualifying as a righteous and chosen vessel of the Lord.

No doubt, I am crying for peace. But so far it has been quite a lonely journey.


So yes, I am woefully lost. Thankyou for asking.
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Incon, i'll inject in bold:

Well Roger, I had to think about the answer for a day. The short of it is that the only thread of belief that remains is that I have been forgiven once by one from the unseen world. One that I used to call my Heavenly Father. I also gave priesthood blessings where thoughts and impressions flowed through me beyond my ability to create on my own. Good loving, peaceful wholesome things.

RM: "Forgiveness" is an unconditional response to change of habit/action by a repentant/smartening-up person. It is Universal. While previous "bad" behaviour might leave scars, as too long smoking, it could as well leave nothing but learning via the experience. It does feel good to be on better ground or as you say "healed". I've felt the benefits of much change/repentance in my years. I think more so since seperating reality from religion.

I too have experienced, as have countless others--both in and outside of Church--what you describe as being beyond yourself. I respectfully suggest, that while they are often thought of as a "Religious Experience", they are more intuitive connections to Universal powers/forces that we seldom avail ourselves of...


I know the Book of Mormon. I've dedicated my life to studying and understanding how I might emulate it's spiritual aspects. I think that for the most part, it is a roadmap that would encourage a peaceable walk. Although I now believe it to be a work of fiction, it has been an effective teacher to my family in this respect.

RM: It is an interesting book. I particularly like Mosiah, 4:12-30, as it relates to day-to-day mortal life and how best to employ it. Try substituting the term 'Universe' for 'God' in KB speech, i think it broadens it beyond the time of its era--fiction or fact--into our time with a fit more appropriate to our current knowledge bank. Most great literary works are fiction...

The healing I now seek is reconciliation between myself and the God that has been pitching me clues that a corrupt and immoral organization is the path to eternal happiness. Joseph Smith committed telestrial acts that remain unforgiven. I refuse to believe such a human was capable of qualifying as a righteous and chosen vessel of the Lord.

RM: I don't mean to be trite, but, how long did it take you to get over the shock of finding out: there is no Santa Claus? The LDS indoctrination you experienced, depending whether a convert, or born-in, has obviously served its intended purpose well. As a convert, with a wholesome background (not that i was) it became slowly evident that the contents belied the packaging. So i walked away richer and smarter for the experience. You can too, when you forgive Joseph Smith for his influence on your psyche...

He's simply another guy who dreamed a dream that others found appealing, for their own reasons and needs. When you see yourself as no-less/no-more chosen than Joseph Smith, or anyone else, you will walk and not weary confident in your ability to heal yourself...line upon line...precept by concept...


No doubt, I am crying for peace. But so far it has been quite a lonely journey.


So yes, I am woefully lost. Thankyou for asking.



It seems you are in the process of finding yourself, quite successfully by the way. Yes, it may seem lonely but there are many ahead of you and more behind you. Keep on keepin' on... Peace will come... Warm regards, Roger
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi James, I'm glad i asked! You say:

Fifth generation LDS from both sides. My spiritual bio is quite unbelievable, except for my wife and kids my secular bio really stinks. Barely graduated from High School yet I got in MENSA for a couple weeks after I dropped out of straight A college, at the Lord's insistence. I have been set up to take apart and comprehend all the mistakes made since the restoration by the LDS Church. Hopefully, so that a real and true Zion might emerge unspotted. C&E sure 1987. Excommunicated to my great relief in 1991. Church gave me migraines every week from the hatred the Mormons cramped up with as they choked on my explosive scriptural insights tthe likes of which had never before sounded in their ears. Five great kids, son just joined the Marines. Working stiff making just enough to not survive well.



WOW! Five generations of indoctrination!? Where? You seem like a VERY interesting guy! Relate to your frustrations :-) Sounds as if you have quite a project before you!? Good luck! I understand "...cramped up with..." Couple of decades ago the Bishopric sitting behind me, went into bodily contortions--i was told--when i said i looked forward to the day when my daughter (5 girls) would be ordained. We had just witnessed a 12 year old boy-child receive THE "Priesthood"... Why not my 12 year old girl-child? Have never received a good answer.

I goofed with the quote thing.

Regardless how well naysayers might stive to reign in my faith I have mounted up as upon eagles wings to ride the high places of the earth and shall always triumph. Faith is pushed along by the good imagination of the heart and I have a faith that has brought together the end from the beginning. Twenty-five years ago I slowed down and stopped telling people the new things I was uncovering. They cannot begin to go there. Not until they do the first works. Not until Zion begins for real. And I know, I know to you I must be a horse's ass. Can you say that up here in the highest kingdom?[/quote]

Very poetic! As said, "...all is well in Zion...and they are taken by the hand and led gently..." I think you might have found a good venue here. I look forward to your reasoning. No, i think no such thing as you being, "...a horse's ass..." Personally, as one with little 'faith' in scripture validity, you might have to be patient with my doubts and disbeliefs... Warm regards, Roger
_James Muir
_Emeritus
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:16 am

Post by _James Muir »

Inconceivable wrote:
The healing I now seek is reconciliation between myself and the God that has been pitching me clues that a corrupt and immoral organization is the path to eternal happiness. Joseph Smith committed telestrial acts that remain unforgiven. I refuse to believe such a human was capable of qualifying as a righteous and chosen vessel of the Lord.

No doubt, I am crying for peace. But so far it has been quite a lonely journey.


So yes, I am woefully lost. Thankyou for asking.


This post made me want to think on it for a day. I will think upon it perhaps for a week or two. I need something like this sort of situation to challenge me again and make me want to get closer to God and more powerful with greater inspiration to cut with a two edge sword and divide asunder the light and the dark in behalf of Inconceivable.

I have sought over thirty years for anyone who might care enough to recognize the true gospel taught in the Book of Mormon. Inconcievable has a great recognition of it. The second thing I always yearned for was to find anyone who cared, or believed enough to perhaps accomplish the Book of Mormon standard of conversion.

I wrote up a weak summary of the Book of Mormon Standard of Conversion and sent it to President Ezra Taft Benson after his Book of Mormon speaches that seemed to open the door. He personally responded to me with quite a nice letter saying that he noted my article with interest. He soon became incapacitated. I might not have got EXED if he had remained sharp. I might have opened up greater understanding....ah...who am I kidding. Anyways I want to thrust in my cycle with my might and try to revive the dread Pirate Roberts.

Thanks for the call for help. The Lord wants me to come unto him and get another jolt from his electrode. I have been wasting away in the duldrums. The problem with me is that you cannot have real charity for one person without having charity for everyone. That really kicks my behind. I have to throw off a heavey load of layered resentments that are cemented upon my back. I felt some little bit little slough off today and it shocked me slightly. We shall see what comes.
Shall I find faith on the earth?
Where is my Zion?
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi James, more poetry ;-) What are the "layers of resentment cemented to your back"? When, why EXD? LDSism doesn't seem to be as prone to that practice as they once were. The field is, as ever, white. Enjoy your harvest... Warm regards, Roger
_Inconceivable
_Emeritus
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:44 am

Post by _Inconceivable »

Thanks Roger,

First of all, truth be told knowing my parents were behind the charitable nature of Santa didn't bother me (Come to think of it, if I were willing tell you what my parents did for a living you would find the parallels quite amusing). Santa represents the good in all parents (at least in most Christian countries). There really is a Santa, Roger. He represents the best intentions of a kind and loving parent. Will the real Santa please stand up? There really isn't much of a downside to knowing, is there?

The church is not the Santa I knew. It's founders were not particularly benevolent in nature. I would have done violence to any married man that would ask me if he could have relations with my daughter or wife. How much of the feel goods can be attributed to a loving God and how much are the philosophies of man mingled with it? Is God's true nature even suspect? The worse Santa could do to a child would be to give them a little coal to keep warm on a winter's night - and only if they were really naughty. I never got coal even when I wasn't so nice.

Unlike Santa, Joseph Smith did great harm to many with his duplicitous nature. To forgive the little man would be easy if he were not continually in may face (through my family, friends and community). In spite of him, I am searching for the truth that will hopefully bring peace to my soul and even yet guide my family.

[/quote]It seems you are in the process of finding yourself, quite successfully by the way. Yes, it may seem lonely but there are many ahead of you and more behind you. Keep on keepin' on... Peace will come... Warm regards, Roger[/quote]

Thanks. Perhaps. I have a few friends outside of the church that have made the same evaluation and it warms me. However, my lifelong friends within the church are saddened and troubled. They rather see me as running with scissors. Their judgements are even felt from a distance. No doubt they have no idea how unkind their thinking is.
_Inconceivable
_Emeritus
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:44 am

Post by _Inconceivable »

..I need something like this sort of situation to challenge me again and make me want to get closer to God and more powerful with greater inspiration to cut with a two edge sword and divide asunder the light and the dark in behalf of Inconceivable.

..I have sought over thirty years for anyone who might care enough to recognize the true gospel taught in the Book of Mormon. Inconcievable has a great recognition of it. The second thing I always yearned for was to find anyone who cared, or believed enough to perhaps accomplish the Book of Mormon standard of conversion..

..Anyways I want to thrust in my cycle with my might and try to revive the dread Pirate Roberts.



James,

I'm going to be pretty blunt, here. You kinda creep me out. I could not bet my life on where you are coming from. If you were willing to knock it down a few notches by eliminating some of the platitudes, perhaps even addressing me rather than referring to me as if I were your lab rat, I'd feel a little less intimidated.
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