Origins of the Book of Mormon

[_charity]

I find your arrogance pertaining to what constitutes evidence to be pathetic. You have a lack of skepticism to something that is an obvious fraud and no skepticism towards someone who was a convicted confidence gamer.

I know everything about what you percieve as "spiritual matters". You know nothing of me but let me drop you a little hint. I am an RM, I was a member for 25 years until I finally decided to stop lying to myself and I posess more skepticism in my thumb than you do in your whole body.

True. We are message board entities. My entity implements skepticism and study in employing rational thought to discern truth. Your entity is a carbon copy of every other mountebank, a brainwashed tool who's purpose in life is to deny the more rational path and follow foolishly chasing after invisible dragons. Step outside your comfort zone and realize that your opinion is not supported by the evidence we both have.

Shall we try to Trump each other? I have served a mission. I have been an adult member for 47 years. I have a master's degree in psychology. I wrote a master's thesis using a scientific study and statistical analyis. Maybe this statement will help you a little. Although he may not have said it first, Isaac Newton said, "If I have seen further than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulder of giants." I just see further than you do. But you can climb on the shoulders of giants and enjoy the view, too. It really is a good view from up here.

[_Mercury]

What a perfect example of "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts." Go ahead, stick your head in the sand. You wouldn't want to find out something that would shake your little anti-Mormon world view.

See here is the thing. My mind was made up, just like yours once upon a time. I knew that joe was a prophet. Several years ago I objectively looked at the evidence and decided based on the evidence that I was wrong.

You can't call someone out (falsely) for ignoring the other opinion if you yourself are a blathering dumbass who is ignoring the evidence. You are the black pot calling the white tea kettle black.

[_charity]

What a perfect example of "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts." Go ahead, stick your head in the sand. You wouldn't want to find out something that would shake your little anti-Mormon world view.

See here is the thing. My mind was made up, just like yours once upon a time. I knew that joe was a prophet. Several years ago I objectively looked at the evidence and decided based on the evidence that I was wrong.

You can't call someone out (falsely) for ignoring the other opinion if you yourself are a blathering dumbass who is ignoring the evidence. You are the black pot calling the white tea kettle black.

Tut, tut. Start name calling and it is a sure sign you know you have lost the argument.

[_Some Schmo]

Shall we try to Trump each other? I have served a mission. I have been an adult member for 47 years.

And have you, in all that time, ever once sincerely asked yourself the question, "I wonder if it's really not true?" Have you looked at the evidence from that perspective, with honesty and intergrity? Because the fact is, if you had, you wouldn't be a Mormon today, or you just aren't very smart.

My guess is that you've never really done this, and that's exactly why folks accuse people like you of intellectual dishonesty.

[_Mercury]

I find your arrogance pertaining to what constitutes evidence to be pathetic. You have a lack of skepticism to something that is an obvious fraud and no skepticism towards someone who was a convicted confidence gamer.

I know everything about what you percieve as "spiritual matters". You know nothing of me but let me drop you a little hint. I am an RM, I was a member for 25 years until I finally decided to stop lying to myself and I posess more skepticism in my thumb than you do in your whole body.

True. We are message board entities. My entity implements skepticism and study in employing rational thought to discern truth. Your entity is a carbon copy of every other mountebank, a brainwashed tool who's purpose in life is to deny the more rational path and follow foolishly chasing after invisible dragons. Step outside your comfort zone and realize that your opinion is not supported by the evidence we both have.

Shall we try to Trump each other? I have served a mission. I have been an adult member for 47 years. I have a master's degree in psychology. I wrote a master's thesis using a scientific study and statistical analyis. Maybe this statement will help you a little. Although he may not have said it first, Isaac Newton said, "If I have seen further than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulder of giants." I just see further than you do. But you can climb on the shoulders of giants and enjoy the view, too. It really is a good view from up here.

Isaac Newton also believed that by reading the Bible he could discern alchemical secrets. But that's irrelevant to the discussion and your pissing contest extolling your irrelevant academic history is equally irrelevant. So lets get back on track, shall we douche?

Let me break it down for you: EVERY academic opinion outside of those who have a religious "duty" to support Mormonism categorically finds Mormon assertions to be baseless. There is no archaeological evidence. There is as much Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon as there is in a Dr Seuss book. I guess Dr Seuss was practicing Hebrew writing forms in an attempt to...aww f*ck who cares.

There is nothing in the Book of Mormon that is furthered by apologists that can't be explained as straining at gnats, reaching and pethetic conclusions and wannabe intellectuals mixing religious truthiness with laughable "scholarship".

So far you have given us nothing but whiny useless statements along the lines of "Oh YAH?!?! IS TOO!!".

Use that education you state you have and apply objectivity to the evidence. And don't run home to your "spiritual validation" mommy when you can't back your sh*t up.

(Moderator Note---Merc...babe...I beg of you..please...keep the language "Terrestral". Thanks, my friend! Liz)

[Reflexzero]

Joseph’s education and eloquence is a hard thing to pin down, in my opinion. It appears that he rarely wrote things himself, and usually used a scribe (even for his journal[s]). There is the poem that was purportedly written by him (which mentions a “Heavenly Mother”, I believe it was published in Times and Seasons) as a response to a poem that WW Phelps wrote to him. Although not particularly groundbreaking, nor a masterpiece, it is quite eloquent and impressive (although I believe there is some current scholarship that shows Phelps or Rigdon may have written the poem). Then there are statements from newspapers, such as (one of my favorites):

“…his [Joseph's] mental powers appear to be extremely limited, and from the small opportunity he has had at school, he made little or no proficiency, and it is asserted by one of his principle followers, (who also pretends to divine illuminations,) that Jo, even at this day is profoundly ignorant of the meaning of many of the words contained in the Book of Mormon.”

(From the February 1, 1831 issue of The Reflector -- available through Uncle Dale’s site).

Although there seems to be evidence that he lacked an ability with words (through his constant use of scribes, and the general opinion held of him in the non-Mormon world of the period), there is another piece of the puzzle. The fact that he did indeed write the Book of Mormon (albeit through a scribe, and/or translated it). Even from a believer’s perspective, the fact that he had the mental capacity to “translate” is telling of his overall intellect in my opinion. His sermons also seem to show a rather well-educated and well-read individual, and his constant quest to be tutored and educated by others is also telling in my opinion.

I guess the real question would be, what was the state of his intellect, eloquence, etc. at the time of the Book of Mormon’s publication? I dunno. But, I think whether you believe in his prophet-hood or not, he was a borderline genius in his latter years.

[_Mercury]

What a perfect example of "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts." Go ahead, stick your head in the sand. You wouldn't want to find out something that would shake your little anti-Mormon world view.

See here is the thing. My mind was made up, just like yours once upon a time. I knew that joe was a prophet. Several years ago I objectively looked at the evidence and decided based on the evidence that I was wrong.

You can't call someone out (falsely) for ignoring the other opinion if you yourself are a blathering dumbass who is ignoring the evidence. You are the black pot calling the white tea kettle black.

Tut, tut. Start name calling and it is a sure sign you know you have lost the argument.

Claiming victory because I called you names is a sure sign that:

A) You are a dumbass who is ignoring the evidence.

B) You know you have lost and are looking for a way to claim victory when its pretty obvious your up sh*t creek without a paddle.

[_karl61]

how about he got a copy of "view of the hebrews" and studied it out in his mind. and then began dictating the Book of Mormon. So much of Joseph's unconscious mind, things he read, things saw, things he heard, things he thought about, were in the book. We won't even address taking a break and copying Isaiah and the parts of the New Testament. Well, I guess we could.

[_Mercury]

how about he got a copy of "view of the hebrews" and studied it out in his mind. and then began dictating the Book of Mormon. So much of Joseph's unconscious mind, things he read, things saw, things he heard, things he thought about, were in the book. We won't even address taking a break and copying Isaiah and the parts of the New Testament. Well, I guess we could.

that's the ticket. Joe had been concocting this story in his mind and relating it to others WAY before the scribes started writing down his poor english. It does not take a genius to extrapolate the feasibility of the situation, even given the short timeline given by the douche formerly known as Charity.

[_Doctor Steuss]

how about he got a copy of "view of the hebrews" and studied it out in his mind. and then began dictating the Book of Mormon. So much of Joseph's unconscious mind, things he read, things saw, things he heard, things he thought about, were in the book. We won't even address taking a break and copying Isaiah and the parts of the New Testament. Well, I guess we could.

After reading View of the Hebrews, I didn't see how it could have had any substantial influence.