Did Joseph Smith marry for love?

[_moksha]

...but on the other hand I felt motivated out of deep love and a desire to be with her and her two boys forever, and also compelled to some degree by divine commandment and inherent healthy desires to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.

But, maybe I am unusual in that way.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You are absolutely right, there are multiple reasons why we would do something as complicated as marriage. If you throw in the fact that Joseph was already married, that complicates things even further.

From my youth, I seem to remember that the sexual urge was a huge factor in any considerations.

[_wenglund]

Yeah, I know this thread has the potential to go south in a hurry, but I was thinking about apologetic explanations for Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy. We are told that he really didn't want to do it, but was commanded of God. Some of his wives went so far as to say that he resisted so stubbornly that God had to send an angel with a drawn sword to threaten him with destruction if he didn't enter into polygamy. The practice was instituted to raise up a righteous generation; it was not about Joseph's desires.

But I was reading about his alleged marriage to Fanny Alger, who is considered the first of his plural wives. The only testimony we have of said marriage is Mosiah Hancock's relating of what his father, Levi, told him. Joseph told him he wanted Fanny, "For I love Fanny." Nothing was said about angels or commandments. He simply said he loved her and wanted her for his wife. Fanny's parents agreed to the request (communicated by Levi) because they believed that the prophet would not have asked for anything wrong.

So, what I'm wondering is, if Joseph was at all reluctant or motivated by commandment or the threat of destruction, he doesn't seem to have communicated it to anyone. Why does everyone insist that Joseph married for every reason except the obvious one?

I am wondering if one need suppose a single reason for the sealings/marriage, or even suppose there might not be multiple reasons that may have been conflicting?

I don't know about others of you, but when I seriously contemplated marrying my long-term girlfriend at the time, there were a variety of reasons that I considered for doing so, and some of those reasons were quite conflicting--on the one hand I was considerably reluctant to marry because I felt financially inadequate and unsure about certain compatibility issues, but on the other hand I felt motivated out of deep love and a desire to be with her and her two boys forever, and also compelled to some degree by divine commandment and inherent healthy desires to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.

But, maybe I am unusual in that way.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Did you ever considering not marrying your long-time girlfriend because, I dunno, she was already married to another man?

If not, then your experience is manifestly not relevant to the question at hand.

Joseph Smith serially married unwed women and married women, following his first legally-recognized marriage to Emma.

Sure, there may have been lots of reasons Joseph Smith contemplated for not polygamously marrying both unmarried and married women, after Emma. But among the least of which reasons was compatibility issues. I'd venture. Or, was Joseph Smith thinking, "Man, I really want to illegally marry this minor and have sex with her, but, Jiminy-Christmas, what about the compatibility issues!?! I mean, is Emma gonna be cool with my sexually gratifying another wife? I've gotta mull this over."

"No, it's cool. God told me to do it--and she's going to be damned if she doesn't go along."

Marry another 32 women and then post about possible reasons for not marrying # 2. CKS

I suppose that were marriage to another man the only factor of consideration in this complex issue, then you may be right about my experience not being manifestly relevant.

However, as I understand things, there are a host of commonalities that give some relavance to my experience. Joseph and I belong to the same Church, and have the same basic religious beliefs, we both accept as divine the revelations he received (including those dealing with marriage), we were about the same age, we are both male, we both were contemplating marriage, and in our contemplations of marriage, we both had various reasons for wanting to marry as well as to not marry, we were both considering marrying a woman that was still married to (or at least in my case, still sealed to, though divorced from) her husband. Also, I think it very likely that he and I don't think in the same crass and overly simplist way about marriage as you appear to. And, for these reason, I think my experience is far maore relevant than yours, though unlike you, I am not intollerant of differing points of view, and thus won't return the disfavor of try to dismiss your comments out of hand.

But, to each their own. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_truth dancer]

Hi CK...

Joseph Smith serially married unwed women and married women, following his first legally-recognized marriage to Emma.

He also, "married" GIRLS.

I have a very hard time thinking about these young girls having to "marry" Joseph Smith... it really makes my physically sick to think about it.

~dancer~

[_Sethbag]

But I was reading about his alleged marriage to Fanny Alger, who is considered the first of his plural wives. The only testimony we have of said marriage is Mosiah Hancock's relating of what his father, Levi, told him. Joseph told him he wanted Fanny, "For I love Fanny." Nothing was said about angels or commandments. He simply said he loved her and wanted her for his wife. Fanny's parents agreed to the request (communicated by Levi) because they believed that the prophet would not have asked for anything wrong.

So, what I'm wondering is, if Joseph was at all reluctant or motivated by commandment or the threat of destruction, he doesn't seem to have communicated it to anyone. Why does everyone insist that Joseph married for every reason except the obvious one?

Fanny was unique in that the marriage preceded the sealing powers being restored to Joseph in the Kirtland Temple (so it couldn't have been a sealing, as the other marriages have been described). Also, as you point out, Joseph had not yet started using 'the angel with a drawn sword' guilt-trip to convince women to marry him. Maybe it all did just start with simple love.

I started a post on this subject on MAD back in February of this year, pointing out all of these things.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... ower+alger

I think it's a bigtime mistake for a critic to even fall into the apologetic trap of calling the Fanny Alger affair any kind of marriage at all. There is little to no evidence that any type of actual marriage ceremony took place, other than a second-hand account of one through one particular source who would have had a motive to defend the Prophet's reputation. Given that not a single one of the prerequisites for Celestial Marriage had been restored to the earth with, I suppose, the exception of the Melchezedek Priesthood, how does it make any sense at all for God to have commanded, or instructed Joseph Smith to "restore" polygamy to the earth by having him marry Fanny Alger? It could at best have been for time only. And it was of secret enough a nature that Oliver Cowdery, the 2nd Elder of the Church, one of the Three Witnesses, and scribe in the Book of Mormon translation, who first baptised and ordained Joseph Smith to his priesthood after they were supposedly restored, thought of it as a nasty, filthy affair.

For the benefit, assuming it's of any benefit, of those who can't read threads on MAD, here's a quotation of my original post.

There is some disagreement on the date when Joseph Smith is said to have "married" Fanny Alger. I've seen as late as 1835, where Todd Compton says February or March of 1833.

The sealing power was supposedly conferred upon Joseph Smith in the Kirtland Temple on April 3, 1836.

We've all read the scriptures where the Lord says his house is a house of order.

Of what nature then was Joseph's "marriage" to Fanny Alger? Had either Fanny Alger or Joseph Smith been endowed? No. Was the sealing power even upon the earth? No. What is it then, about the "marriage" of Fanny Alger to Joseph Smith, that was Celestial in nature? This was no sealing, as the apologists like to say of Joseph's other "marriages". It couldn't have been a sealing, because the sealing power was not even on the earth.

Even assuming that Joseph Smith and Fanny even took each other in marriage in an actual ceremony performed by a real person (which I doubt), that person could not have sealed them, and could at most have performed a marriage ceremony good for time only.

So why would God command Joseph Smith to practice the new and everylasting covenant of marriage with none of the prerequisites even restored on the earth?

Of what nature could the "marriage" of Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger have been to justify its performance and consummation given the state of the priesthood, keys, and ordinances recognized as being necessary for the performance of eternal marriages?

[_cksalmon]

Yeah, I know this thread has the potential to go south in a hurry, but I was thinking about apologetic explanations for Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy. We are told that he really didn't want to do it, but was commanded of God. Some of his wives went so far as to say that he resisted so stubbornly that God had to send an angel with a drawn sword to threaten him with destruction if he didn't enter into polygamy. The practice was instituted to raise up a righteous generation; it was not about Joseph's desires.

But I was reading about his alleged marriage to Fanny Alger, who is considered the first of his plural wives. The only testimony we have of said marriage is Mosiah Hancock's relating of what his father, Levi, told him. Joseph told him he wanted Fanny, "For I love Fanny." Nothing was said about angels or commandments. He simply said he loved her and wanted her for his wife. Fanny's parents agreed to the request (communicated by Levi) because they believed that the prophet would not have asked for anything wrong.

So, what I'm wondering is, if Joseph was at all reluctant or motivated by commandment or the threat of destruction, he doesn't seem to have communicated it to anyone. Why does everyone insist that Joseph married for every reason except the obvious one?

I am wondering if one need suppose a single reason for the sealings/marriage, or even suppose there might not be multiple reasons that may have been conflicting?

I don't know about others of you, but when I seriously contemplated marrying my long-term girlfriend at the time, there were a variety of reasons that I considered for doing so, and some of those reasons were quite conflicting--on the one hand I was considerably reluctant to marry because I felt financially inadequate and unsure about certain compatibility issues, but on the other hand I felt motivated out of deep love and a desire to be with her and her two boys forever, and also compelled to some degree by divine commandment and inherent healthy desires to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.

But, maybe I am unusual in that way.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Did you ever considering not marrying your long-time girlfriend because, I dunno, she was already married to another man?

If not, then your experience is manifestly not relevant to the question at hand.

Joseph Smith serially married unwed women and married women, following his first legally-recognized marriage to Emma.

Sure, there may have been lots of reasons Joseph Smith contemplated for not polygamously marrying both unmarried and married women, after Emma. But among the least of which reasons was compatibility issues. I'd venture. Or, was Joseph Smith thinking, "Man, I really want to illegally marry this minor and have sex with her, but, Jiminy-Christmas, what about the compatibility issues!?! I mean, is Emma gonna be cool with my sexually gratifying another wife? I've gotta mull this over."

"No, it's cool. God told me to do it--and she's going to be damned if she doesn't go along."

Marry another 32 women and then post about possible reasons for not marrying # 2. CKS

I suppose that were marriage to another man the only factor of consideration in this complex issue, then you may be right about my experience not being manifestly relevant.

However, as I understand things, there are a host of commonalities that give some relavance to my experience. Joseph and I belong to the same Church, and have the same basic religious beliefs, we both accept as divine the revelations he received (including those dealing with marriage), we were about the same age, we are both male, we both were contemplating marriage, and in our contemplations of marriage, we both had various reasons for wanting to marry as well as to not marry, we were both considering marrying a woman that was still married to (or at least in my case, still sealed to, though divorced from) her husband. Also, I think it very likely that he and I don't think in the same crass and overly simplist way about marriage as you appear to. And, for these reason, I think my experience is far maore relevant than yours, though unlike you, I am not intollerant of differing points of view, and thus won't return the disfavor of try to dismiss your comments out of hand.

But, to each their own. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well, like you, I am not intollerant of misspellings. I am dismissing your comments out of hand, though I think you realize that.

Again, without avoiding the issue this next time, please go ahead and marry another 32 wives, some minors, some already married to other men, and then come and discuss the issue. Otherwise, your very quotidian experience, vis-a-vis Joseph Smith's is completely and utterly irrelevant.

we both accept as divine the revelations he received (including those dealing with marriage), we were about the same age, we are both male, we both were contemplating marriage, and in our contemplations of marriage, we both had various reasons for wanting to marry as well as to not marry, we were both considering marrying a woman that was still married to (or at least in my case, still sealed to, though divorced from) her husband.

Or, to your mind, is marrying a divorced woman (your only, singular wife) really analogous to marrying 32 other women, some of which were not just "sealed" to other men, but actually married to them, in a legally-recognized way, and some of which were minors?

Germane Hint: No, it's not. I'm completely ready, willing, and able to dismiss your irrelevant comments out of hand, if only for the simple fact that they are irrelevant to the question at hand--despite any and all superficial parallels you might adduce that have nothing to do with the fact that you are not a polygamist and are not married to 32 other women beside your currently legally-recognized wife.

Get it?

You're very tolerant of illegalities in marriage. You're very tolerant of multiple sexual partners. I get it. You're very tolerant of Joseph Smith marrying other men's wives. You're very tolerant of "God's" condemning of Emma to damnation if she didn't go along with the divine plan for multi-woman sexual acts in the context of "marriage."

I get it.

He was a prophet, after all. This is normal stuff.

He's really very similar to you: wondering if he should take on the responsibility of another wife (and another 31 after that).

It's apples and apples, really.

You're a real treat, Wade. It's always about others not living up to the expectations of decency that you demand from LDS critics. Even when the issue is the seduction of minors and already-married women. For the life of me, I can't see anything objectionable about this. If only the dissenters could get mentally healthy like you.

[_Gazelam]

Joseph was obviously not sealed to Emma at the time of the Fanny Alger marriage either. The Prophet was commanded by God to practice the doctrine as part of the restoration of all things. Asking God why the prophets of the past practiced Plural marriage ( Read this more accurately as Plural Families) He was told that upon being taught the principle, he would then have to live it.

In both cases, the women took Josephs Name upon themselves. Think of this as a preperatory gospel to beign properly sealed in the Temple. The Doctrine is the same in a temporal sense. How the Husband cares for those who bear his name is a testimony to his worthiness before the Lord.

That the sealing power and authority of Elijah had not yet been restored is a moot point.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Joseph was obviously not sealed to Emma at the time of the Fanny Alger marriage either. The Prophet was commanded by God to practice the doctrine as part of the restoration of all things. Asking God why the prophets of the past practiced Plural marriage ( Read this more accurately as Plural Families) He was told that upon being taught the principle, he would then have to live it.

In both cases, the women took Josephs Name upon themselves. Think of this as a preperatory gospel to beign properly sealed in the Temple. The Doctrine is the same in a temporal sense. How the Husband cares for those who bear his name is a testimony to his worthiness before the Lord.

That the sealing power and authority of Elijah had not yet been restored is a moot point.

So how well did Joseph care for Fanny? Just curious....

[_MishMagnet]

Much like the Book of Mormon Challenge I will challenge anyone to give 32 people the love and respect they deserve from a spouse. It is truly impossible. I would think after 10 or so your feelings would get kind of numb. I would personally spiral into depression due to the fact that, at that point, everyone involved was only getting my briefest of attentions and I would have zero time to myself.

My own gr gr gr gr Grandfather, Heber C. Kimball had 54 wives. Divided equally I would have a husband for one week of the year. Perhaps this makes me an uppity woman for expecting more than that. You are my only husband, you have all my devotion, I most likely have to remind you what my name is.

This is how much esteem I'm held in God's eyes? That there is a reason for this?

[_Gazelam]

So how well did Joseph care for Fanny? Just curious....

Theres actually not much information available on the matter.

It is said that she stayed with Brigham Youngs Father in law for a time, but she eventually left with her parents during the Missouri period of the church, and she later remarried, and would give no comment regarding her marriage to Joseph.

[_Gazelam]

Much like the Book of Mormon Challenge I will challenge anyone to give 32 people the love and respect they deserve from a spouse. It is truly impossible. I would think after 10 or so your feelings would get kind of numb. I would personally spiral into depression due to the fact that, at that point, everyone involved was only getting my briefest of attentions and I would have zero time to myself.

My own gr gr gr gr Grandfather, Heber C. Kimball had 54 wives. Divided equally I would have a husband for one week of the year. Perhaps this makes me an uppity woman for expecting more than that. You are my only husband, you have all my devotion, I most likely have to remind you what my name is.

This is how much esteem I'm held in God's eyes? That there is a reason for this?

You pose a great question with your post here. How intimate can a plural marriage be? I would have to say I don't know.

I have heard it said that a plural marriage has more to do with the doctrine of consecration than any other principle of the gospel. Devoting ones life to the proper rearign and training of a righteous posterity, ensuring they are brought up to be morally strong.

How will this atmosphere be in the world to come, when emotions and feeling can be sent out and received the same way the Holy Ghost transmitts those impressions to us? It will be interesting to see if the intimacy issue is still an issue in the world to come.