1 Nephi 14:10-12 'There are save two churchds only'

[_dartagnan]

I get it. Well informed people don't join the Church because if they join the Church that proves they are not well informed.

Circular reasoning, Kevin. Shame on you. You know better.

I do know better. I also know what circular reasoning is, which you apparently don’t.

Obviously you don’t get it.

I never said joining the Church “proves” anything. You’re just a straw man machine aren’t you?

I said people are generally misinformed when joining the Church and this is established fact. The Church is not interested in teaching its investigators critical aspects that would otherwise dissuade them. This is considered dishonest in any other context. It is like selling your car to a gullible person in need without telling them you have never changed the oil and it could blow at any minute. It is like selling your house to someone in need while neglecting to tell them that it is situated in an area prone to landslides. This kind of information would otherwise dissuade people from making misinformed decisions, so the information is withheld. The LDS membership rationalizes this dishonesty by saying they are only acting in the best interests of the investigator

Of course some Mormons are intelligent. In fact, Mormons are among the most educated people around. But intelligent humans are still emotional creatures just the same. The Church tries to funnel people into the Church via an institutionalized system of disinformation. It knowingly withholds any and all critical information that might dissuade the investigator otherwise – assuring them they would get bad feelings if they read anything critical and assuring them it is the devil trying to dissuade them- and pumps them up with good emotions to compensate for their ignorance. Even intelligent people can "feel" like an uninformed decision is still a good one. After all, it just feels right doesn’t it?

Idiots follow their emotions all the time and so do intelligent people. Mormons let their emotions control them instead of the other way around (Want to see grown men cry in public? Check out your local/monthly fast and testimony meeting). Mormons, in my opinion, are generally emotionally ignorant, and the Church remains in the dark ages considering what we know today about how and why human behavior is what it is. They explain it all as a spirit experience. If it feels good it is God and if it feels bad it is the opposition which should be avoided at all costs.

[_cacheman]

Hi Charity,

anything which leads people away from God is a detriment to individual progess. Since God has commanded men (and women) not to practice homosexuality, anything which encourages or permits homosexuality is of the church of the devil.

How do you feel about a Christian faith system that believes homosexuality is not against the will of God? Are they simultaneously part of both the church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil? In other words, in your perception, how much 'wrongness' in doctrine and practice is OK before an organization or individual is categorized part of the church of the devil? How much 'rightness' in doctrine and practice is necessary to be part of the church of the lamb of God?

cacheman

[_guy sajer]

Those who . . . selfishly take their own pleasure at the expense of others, those who molest, . . . , I think that is a list of the candidates for the church of the devil.

Oh, I see. You mean like Joseph Smith?

[_Zoidberg]

Are you fighting against Christ? If yes, then I guess that means you are.

Considering that you and I probably have very different ideas of who Christ was/is, I don't think this question is valid.

You are trying to be silly and divert attention from the topic. I am sure you aren't stuck in concrete operational thought and can't handle the abstract concept of "membership" in an organization without a building to meet in. Come on. Don't look so wide eyed and innocent. I'm not buying it.

Let me assure you that I've been in the formal operational stage for quite a while now. Also, where have I mentioned a building? I suppose it's better to be concentrating on concrete events than on things that just don't exist.

The prophet is obviously referring to something that goes beyond buildings to meet in. You know that and are just trying to twist the words to make the meaning obscure.

Again, please show me where I have said anything about buildings. What I meant (and I thought it was pretty clear) was to ask you whether or not you think that it is not necessary to be LDS in the current day and age to be a member of the church of Christ. Plain and simple. Please answer.

I think there probably are. There are some people who are apostate and operating under the radar. Wolves in sheep's clothing

So once you've realized the church is not true, you should just leave immediately? I actually agree and that's what I did; I'm not going anymore. But I'm sure a lot of LDS would disagree with you on this.

What about a testimony being born in the bearing of it? Can't it get reborn by faking it when someone apostacizes? Or is there only a one-time pass for faking?

I am sure you aren't listening

You are right. I'm not. I'm reading what you have to say very attentively.

but anything which leads people away from God is a detriment to individual progess. Since God has commanded men (and women) not to practice homosexuality, anything which encourages or permits homosexuality is of the church of the devil. Any effort to help save people from that is not hateful, it is trying to help.

cacheman asked you a very good question about churches that accept gay people. Also, what about free agency? Isn't it what this life is all about? Forcing people to live your way is not going to save them according to your own theology. I've been waiting for the First Presidency to realize that obvious contradiction for quite some time, but I guess it's not happening.

Oh, yes, I would think that anyone who paid dues to any pro-homosexual organization, has their names on the membership list, supports their activities, yep.

I would be very interested to know what constitutes a pro-homosexual organization, in your opinion.

Haven't we all got the light of Christ, charity?

We all did at one time. Some have covered it over with so many layers of sinful mud it doesn't shine any more.

Care to provide a source for this statement?

[_charity]

I said people are generally misinformed when joining the Church and this is established fact.

No, you said they were not well informed. There is a big diffeernce between not being taught everything and being taught something incorrecct.

First circular reasoning and now changing arguments. Tsk Tsk.


The Church is not interested in teaching its investigators critical aspects that would otherwise dissuade them. This is considered dishonest in any other context. It is like selling your car to a gullible person in need without telling them you have never changed the oil and it could blow at any minute. It is like selling your house to someone in need while neglecting to tell them that it is situated in an area prone to landslides. This kind of information would otherwise dissuade people from making misinformed decisions, so the information is withheld. The LDS membership rationalizes this dishonesty by saying they are only acting in the best interests of the investigator.

This old canard is so tired. Why don't you get a new argument. One that really works.

Of course some Mormons are intelligent. In fact, Mormons are among the most educated people around. But intelligent humans are still emotional creatures just the same. The Church tries to funnel people into the Church via an institutionalized system of disinformation. It knowingly withholds any and all critical information that might dissuade the investigator otherwise – assuring them they would get bad feelings if they read anything critical and assuring them it is the devil trying to dissuade them- and pumps them up with good emotions to compensate for their ignorance. Even intelligent people can "feel" like an uninformed decision is still a good one. After all, it just feels right doesn’t it?

Idiots follow their emotions all the time and so do intelligent people. Mormons let their emotions control them instead of the other way around (Want to see grown men cry in public? Check out your local/monthly fast and testimony meeting). Mormons, in my opinion, are generally emotionally ignorant, and the Church remains in the dark ages considering what we know today about how and why human behavior is what it is. They explain it all as a spirit experience. If it feels good it is God and if it feels bad it is the opposition which should be avoided at all costs.

I am sorry you have become so embittered you can no longer see the truth. About dark ages thinking. I have a master's degree in psychology. I can explain a lot of human behavior and I don't have to deny valid spiritual experiences to put up a false face to justify a course of action set out of----guess what-----emotions.

[_dartagnan]

No, you said they were not well informed.

I am saying both apply. LDS investigators are not well informed and are generally misinformed too.

First circular reasoning and now changing arguments. Tsk Tsk.

I never applied circular reasoning and I am not changing my argument. You’re exercising your stupidity again.

The fact is adults who join the Church do so in ignorance. They are not informed about any of the various issues that would otherwise dissuade them, and the Church makes an effort to get them in the water before they can actually act on any real desire to do any kind of objective independent research. If the missionaries show up to your house on Monday with discussion #1, they’ll be back tomorrow - Thursday at the absolute latest - with discussion #2 which includes a commitment to get baptized that same Sunday. There are perhaps 20 singular points of fact that would naturally dissuade investigators, but none of these will be explained by the missionaries. Heck, if you’re black, you probably won’t even be told about the priesthood ban.

You think there is integrity behind this decision to keep investigators in the dark?

This old canard is so tired. Why don't you get a new argument. One that really works.

Is that the best response you could muster? This is why you’re boring. Calling something a canard? Gee, where have I heard this before? Talk about getting something new. I heard this only like a million times by apologists who cannot respond intellectually to valid points. You just happen to fall into that category of pseudo-debaters.

Can you refute anything I just said?

No, I didn’t think so.

I am sorry you have become so embittered you can no longer see the truth.

When all else fails, rely on apologetic tactic #2. Claim your opponent is “embittered.” What makes you think I am bitter? Oh, because I have come to learn things unflattering towards your Church. Sue me.

About dark ages thinking. I have a master's degree in psychology.

Then you know there are perfectly logical and chemical explanations as to why people “feel” good feelings when they pray about something they want to be true. There is no reason to believe it is a “spiritual” experience coming from God, unless of course you’re still in the dark ages. This is what the Church does. It asks people to make a life-changing decision based on a dubious assumption that is easily explained by other means; means that the investigators will not share for obvious reasons. It employs an ignorant perspective that flies in the face of what modern science has uncovered about body chemistry.

I can explain a lot of human behavior and I don't have to deny valid spiritual experiences to put up a false face to justify a course of action set out of----guess what-----emotions.

You don’t get it. It is the LDS position that discounts natural explanations for emotional experiences, not vice versa. You create spiritual experiences with your emotions.

[_karl61]

No, you said they were not well informed.

I am saying both apply. LDS investigators are not well informed and are generally misinformed too.

First circular reasoning and now changing arguments. Tsk Tsk.

I never applied circular reasoning and I am not changing my argument. You’re exercising your stupidity again.

The fact is adults who join the Church do so in ignorance. They are not informed about any of the various issues that would otherwise dissuade them, and the Church makes an effort to get them in the water before they can actually act on any real desire to do any kind of objective independent research. If the missionaries show up to your house on Monday with discussion #1, they’ll be back tomorrow - Thursday at the absolute latest - with discussion #2 which includes a commitment to get baptized that same Sunday. There are perhaps 20 singular points of fact that would naturally dissuade investigators, but none of these will be explained by the missionaries. Heck, if you’re black, you probably won’t even be told about the priesthood ban.
You think there is integrity behind this decision to keep investigators in the dark?

This old canard is so tired. Why don't you get a new argument. One that really works.

Is that the best response you could muster? This is why you’re boring. Calling something a canard? Gee, where have I heard this before? Talk about getting something new. I heard this only like a million times by apologists who cannot respond intellectually to valid points. You just happen to fall into that category of pseudo-debaters.

Can you refute anything I just said?

No, I didn’t think so.

I am sorry you have become so embittered you can no longer see the truth.

When all else fails, rely on apologetic tactic #2. Claim your opponent is “embittered.” What makes you think I am bitter? Oh, because I have come to learn things unflattering towards your Church. Sue me.

About dark ages thinking. I have a master's degree in psychology.

Then you know there are perfectly logical and chemical explanations as to why people “feel” good feelings when they pray about something they want to be true. There is no reason to believe it is a “spiritual” experience coming from God, unless of course you’re still in the dark ages. This is what the Church does. It asks people to make a life-changing decision based on a dubious assumption that is easily explained by other means; means that the investigators will not share for obvious reasons. It employs an ignorant perspective that flies in the face of what modern science has uncovered about body chemistry.

I can explain a lot of human behavior and I don't have to deny valid spiritual experiences to put up a false face to justify a course of action set out of----guess what-----emotions.

You don’t get it. It is the LDS position that discounts natural explanations for emotional experiences, not vice versa. You create spiritual experiences with your emotions.

Bullseye! (thumbs up)

[_charity]

You think there is integrity behind this decision to keep investigators in the dark?

All invetigators are encourage to read the Book of Mormon for themselves, pray for their own witness. Of course, since you have denied that there is such a witness then you can't progress any further in a civil discussion about this. I suppose next time you go to a doctor and he tells you about a needed medical procedure, you are going to tell him you have to go to medical school before you can make an informed decision. Sure.

Can you refute anything I just said?

All of it. But you would just twist it around as you have the truth you were given. We have had this same discussion on other boards. You wouldn't listen then, and is there a reason to believe you will now?

When all else fails, rely on apologetic tactic #2. Claim your opponent is “embittered.” What makes you think I am bitter? Oh, because I have come to learn things unflattering towards your Church. Sue me.

No, because you have left off rationality in regards to some things about the Church, and you fight it against it.

About dark ages thinking. I have a master's degree in psychology.

Then you know there are perfectly logical and chemical explanations as to why people “feel” good feelings when they pray about something they want to be true. There is no reason to believe it is a “spiritual” experience coming from God, unless of course you’re still in the dark ages. This is what the Church does. It asks people to make a life-changing decision based on a dubious assumption that is easily explained by other means; means that the investigators will not share for obvious reasons. It employs an ignorant perspective that flies in the face of what modern science has uncovered about body chemistry.

You evidently think psychologists know a lot more than they do. While they can explain a lot, they are left with the problem of reporting. They can look at brain scans of different kinds, chemistry levels, etc. and they are still left with the subject's reporting of their experience. There is no measuring device for that. And they have to deal with the pesky experience reported by people who tell them that what they experience during an intensely spiritual experience is not the common emotions they have experienced at, say, rock concerts, the birth of a baby, a superbowl win, etc.[

quote]I can explain a lot of human behavior and I don't have to deny valid spiritual experiences to put up a false face to justify a course of action set out of----guess what-----emotions.

You don’t get it. It is the LDS position that discounts natural explanations for emotional experiences, not vice versa. You create spiritual experiences with your emotions.

Prove it. Psychology can't. They would really like to know how you came up with that.
[/quote]

[_Jason Bourne]

1 Ne. 14: 10-12 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

What is your objection to this?

First before I opine let me ask you...which Church is the Church of the Lamb of God?

[_Jason Bourne]

Smith considered the Catholic church to be the great whore of the earth. History has shown us that Mormonism is the fat pudgy pimple faced 30-something old maid that nobody even gives a second look.

No he did not.