Bruce R. McConkie didn't just get it wrong

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_Inconceivable
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lost in translation..

Post by _Inconceivable »

charity wrote:Matthew 6: 9-13 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


12 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 13:12)

13 And suffer us not to be led into temptation...

(New Testament | JST Matthew 6:13)



So.. which one is the most correct of any translation? I mean, after you give it some thought for about 7 years.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

I said further that the question has arisen as to whether a public correction should be made and a addendum given emphasizing the [bottom line of photocopied page of journal cut off] . . . it is felt that that would not be wise because Brother McConkie is one of the General Authorities, and it might lessen his influence. The First Presidency recommend that the situation be left as it is, and whenever a question about it arises, we can answer that it is unauthoritative; that it was issued by Brother McConkie on his own responsibility, and he must answer for it.


WOW!

If something is wrong, ignore it. If someone brings it us, go with the, "just opinion," statement.

:-(

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

truth dancer wrote:
I said further that the question has arisen as to whether a public correction should be made and a addendum given emphasizing the [bottom line of photocopied page of journal cut off] . . . it is felt that that would not be wise because Brother McConkie is one of the General Authorities, and it might lessen his influence. The First Presidency recommend that the situation be left as it is, and whenever a question about it arises, we can answer that it is unauthoritative; that it was issued by Brother McConkie on his own responsibility, and he must answer for it.


WOW!

If something is wrong, ignore it. If someone brings it us, go with the, "just opinion," statement.

:-(

~dancer~


Did you notice how they closed ranks? And how there were in excess of 1000 mistakes in the book? 1000 mistakes, and they decided to let it stand, rather than allow one of their own to be embarrassed. Sheesh. And we call them leaders?
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Harmony...

Yep... pretty amazing!

And here is the thing...

Allowing that every word out of a general authorities mouth is not scriptures, did BRM not pray about his ideas? Did he not ask for inspiration? Maybe begin with a fast? Get down on his knees to ask God to help him speak truth? Was there not some sort of HG helping him?

This is what baffles me.

Here, a man called upon as an apostle, a special witness of Christ, a man with all the keys of a prophet, seer, and revelator, and he makes 1000 mistakes?

If BRM can be this misled, either because he thought he was right and was not, or did not know how to hear/feel the HG, or misunderstood the HG's whisperings, or something, how in the world does the average member stand a chance?

We hear apologists say they have had a personal witness to this and that but if BRM gets is this wrong, doesn't it even give a moment of reflection to some believers? Wouldn't it make someone at least question their own personal witness?

Maybe not. :-(

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Here are some more insights into the BRM "saga", written by Joseph Fielding McConkie:

Question: What was all the flap and fuss about Mormon Doctrine, anyway?

Response: The first edition of Mormon Doctrine, released in 1958, caused something of a stir by directly identifying Roman Catholicism as the “great and abominable church” spoken of by Nephi in the Book of Mormon. The authoritative tone of the book was also a concern, with the question being asked, “What right does Bruce McConkie have to speak for the Church?” The book came in for some criticism because of the strong language in which it denounced marginal practices among Latter-day Saints, such as card games in which face cards were used and family reunions that were held on the Sabbath.

Question: Is it true that President David O. McKay banned the book?

Response: In January 1960, President McKay asked Elder McConkie not to have the book reprinted.

Question: How is it, then, that the book was reissued?

Response: On July 5, 1966, President McKay invited Elder McConkie into his office and gave approval for the book to be reprinted if appropriate changes were made and approved. Elder Spencer W. Kimball was assigned to be Elder McConkie’s mentor in making those changes.

Question: Is this generally known?

Response: I don’t think so. I don’t know how people would be expected to know this.

Question: Haven’t you heard people say that Bruce McConkie had the book reprinted contrary to the direction of the First Presidency?

Response: Yes, but if they would think about it, that assertion does not make much sense. The publisher was Bookcraft, not Bruce McConkie, and Bookcraft was always very careful to follow the direction of the Brethren. It could also be noted that Mormon Doctrine was reissued in 1966, and its author was called to the Quorum of the Twelve in 1972. It takes a pretty good imagination to suppose that a man who flagrantly ignored the direction of the president of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles would be called to fill a vacancy in that body.

Whatever faults one might want to attribute to Bruce McConkie, no one who knew him could question his integrity or his discipline, particularly where matters of priesthood direction were concerned. Never in my life have I known a man who was more disciplined or obedient to priesthood direction. Bruce McConkie would have died a thousand deaths before he would have disregarded the prophet’s counsel or that of the Quorum of the Twelve. He was a man who, when assigned to speak in general conference for fourteen minutes and thirty seconds, would not have thought to speak fourteen minutes and thirty-one seconds. He took a stopwatch with him to conference and timed himself by it. For that matter, he made it a practice to watch carefully what other speakers did. When individuals went to him with concerns that fell outside the bounds of the authority or responsibility explicitly given to him, he simply refused to hear what was being said........

Question: How do you know President McKay directed your father to reprint Mormon Doctrine?

Response: My father told me that President McKay had so directed him. In addition to that, I am in possession of handwritten papers by my father affirming that direction.

Question: Did the first edition of Mormon Doctrine cause embarrassment to President McKay?

Response: Yes. The Catholic bishop in Salt Lake City, Bishop Hunt, communicated to President McKay his displeasure with the book and what it said about the Catholic church.

Question: What was Elder McConkie’s reaction to that criticism?

Response: He agreed that what he had written did not facilitate good relations with our Catholic neighbors. He stated, “It wasn’t smart on my part.” He had no reluctance in making the changes he made in the second edition of the book.

Question: So, at least originally, the First Presidency had concerns about Mormon Doctrine?

Response: Yes. One of those concerns was the title itself. There was some question about what business a Seventy had declaring the doctrine of the Church. It is interesting to note, however, that no suggestion was ever made that the title of the book be changed.

Question: Would it be fair to say that the First Presidency gave your father a good horsewhipping for some of the things he wrote in Mormon Doctrine?

Response: I think their concern was not as much with what he had written as that he had done it without seeking counsel and direction from those who presided over him. This was back in a day before the Brethren did much writing, and there was no established review system for what they did write. As to their giving him “a good horse whipping,” I think we can be confident that they were not shy in voicing their feelings. I have been told that when he met with the First Presidency, my father was invited to be seated but chose to remain standing. I also know that it was his practice (because he told me I was to do the same) when you are getting scolded, you offer no excuses—you just take it. After the experience President Moyle observed, “I’ve never seen a man in the Church in my experience that took our criticism—and it was more than criticism—but he took it better than anyone I ever saw. When we were through and Bruce left us, I had a great feeling of love and appreciation for a man who could take it without any alibis, without any excuses, and said he appreciated what we said to him.”

Question: So what kinds of things were omitted from the second edition of the book?

Response: In a number of instances, the first edition of Mormon Doctrine reached beyond the stated purpose of the book—the declaration of the doctrines of Mormonism—to include denouncing various Christian heresies. Entries included the veneration of Mary, or Mariolatry, penance, transubstantiation (the notion that in the sacrament the wafer and wine become the actual flesh and blood of Christ), indulgences, and supererogation, which is the teaching that some people perform more good works than are necessary for their salvation and thus their surplus can be sold to the wicked. This teaching provided the basis for indulgences. Because the purpose of the book was to identify Mormon doctrine, not to catalog heresies, in writing about these things, Bruce McConkie had strayed from his purpose. Hence, such subjects were dropped in the second edition....

Question: How extensive was Elder Kimball’s list of things that needed changing?

Response: There were about fifty items that Elder Kimball wanted Elder McConkie to revisit.

Question: Were these doctrinal matters in which he differed with Elder McConkie?

Response: No. They dealt with tone and with the wisdom of including particular things.

Question: How did Elder McConkie feel about the suggestions made by Elder Kimball?

Response: He was very appreciative. Elder Kimball was a wise mentor who taught him the difference between being right and being appropriate. The fact that something is true does not necessarily mean one ought to say it.

Question: Elder Kimball’s list of things that needed changing sounds much less extensive than the changes that were made in the second edition. Does this suggest that a wiser Bruce McConkie did a lot of rewriting on his own?

Response: Yes, it does.


http://www.meridianmagazine.com/books/0 ... onkie.html
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

truth dancer wrote:Allowing that every word out of a general authorities mouth is not scriptures, did BRM not pray about his ideas? Did he not ask for inspiration? Maybe begin with a fast? Get down on his knees to ask God to help him speak truth? Was there not some sort of HG helping him?

This is what baffles me.



Moses made mistakes, too. He was corrected by the higher wisdom of his father-in-law, Jethro. He was also "banned" from entering the Promised Land. That honour went to Joshua.

1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying,
2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.
3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.
4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.
5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.

7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

I have to ask a speculative question to the OP. If Christ is the father, then who is Christ talking to when he is hung on the cross, or who is Christ talking to in the garden when he asked the cup be taken from his lips? I am not trying to troll here, I just have never been able to rectify an acceptable answer for these questions.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

charity wrote:Matthew 6: 9-13 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


Charity beat me to this.

I don't know who you were quoting styleguy, but he was a nitwit.

And if anyone has a problem with a doctrine taught in Mormon Doctrine, come right out and say it. Be specific.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

I think this is pretty much off topic, but may be interesting:

While serving the mission, Bruce R. McKonkie was more like a bigger than life superhero. He was known less formally as "Bruce R." by us missionaries. He had been a mission president there years previous so I guess us missionaries thought we had some sort of special connection with him. Lots of urban legends about him there.

He knew the scriptures. At least he had memorized the entire standard works. To us, Mormon Doctrine was a standard work. Period.

When he opened his mouth he pulled no punches. When he spoke at stake conference where I was serving his talk was entitled, "Thou shalt not marry the daughters of the cainanites" (Gen 28:6). He ripped the less faithful a new one because too many were marrying outside the church. Some of the members were also getting married by the bishop or paying priests of other churches to use their chapels instead of taking the expensive plane ride to Aukland to be sealed and married correctly - so as to not make a mockery of celestial marriage.

I used to respect him for his cander and fearlessness. I see him differently now.
_karl61
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Post by _karl61 »

Nephi wrote:I have to ask a speculative question to the OP. If Christ is the father, then who is Christ talking to when he is hung on the cross, or who is Christ talking to in the garden when he asked the cup be taken from his lips? I am not trying to troll here, I just have never been able to rectify an acceptable answer for these questions.


we don't know if these are Jesus's words. The author given the name Mark wrote a tale about a Jesus that caught on; other's copied and some wrote something a little different like the gospel of John. Some may say that early LDS church history dealt with one God who was the Lord Jesus Christ and only later was it rewritten and polished to include two different Gods.
I want to fly!
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