The KEPA Manuscripts as Oral Dictation Transcripts

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Indeed, if there were not already a line written below the inserted emendation, there would have been no reason to condense the letters and spacing of the inserted phrase; nothing would have demarked the space available for the insertion.


This is the part you highlighted, but it is pure nonsense. No reason you say? As I already illustrated above, if this were a dictation scenario, then there would be a reason. But since you reject the dictation scenario, that leaves you without one. Again, your problem isn't lack of evidence, but your failure to account for it.

As I explained, the scribe transcribing the dictation would expect there to be an upcoming line below the text. You have not adequately accounted for the line above which crashes upwards. Why does this happen? You don't say.

The insertion of "commencement of this record" was placed in the appropriate gap in order to return the transcription to a balanced format. I've done this on plenty occasions when writing on sheets void of lines. Notebook paper contains lines to help keep the writing horizontal. The scribe clearly filled in the huge gap for the purpose of smoothing the text out and recommencing with a perfectly horizontal line.

His only other choice was that he could have continued writing all subsequent lines parallel to the screwed up line above. That would have resulted in a mess of a transcription.

Simply put, writing on paper without lines makes it easy to drift up or down. A distracted or less than diligent scribe could make this mistake easily. Once the mistake is made, it makes perfect sense to account for it. This seems to be the purpose of the phrase inserted the in this manner.

Anyway, I'll let you two get back to business.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_William Schryver
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Post by _William Schryver »

dartagnan wrote:
Indeed, if there were not already a line written below the inserted emendation, there would have been no reason to condense the letters and spacing of the inserted phrase; nothing would have demarked the space available for the insertion.


This is the part you highlighted, but it is pure nonsense. No reason you say? As I already illustrated above, if this were a dictation scenario, then there would be a reason. But since you reject the dictation scenario, that leaves you without one. Again, your problem isn't lack of evidence, but your failure to account for it.

As I explained, the scribe transcribing the dictation would expect there to be an upcoming line below the text. You have not adequately accounted for the line above which crashes upwards. Why does this happen? You don't say.

The insertion of "commencement of this record" was placed in the appropriate gap in order to return the transcription to a balanced format. I've done this on plenty occasions when writing on sheets void of lines. Notebook paper contains lines to help keep the writing horizontal. The scribe clearly filled in the huge gap for the purpose of smoothing the text out and recommencing with a perfectly horizontal line.

His only other choice was that he could have continued writing all subsequent lines parallel to the screwed up line above. That would have resulted in a mess of a transcription.

Simply put, writing on paper without lines makes it easy to drift up or down. A distracted or less than diligent scribe could make this mistake easily. Once the mistake is made, it makes perfect sense to account for it. This seems to be the purpose of the phrase inserted the in this manner.

Anyway, I'll let you two get back to business.

So, if I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that Williams immediately followed "-edge of this alter" with "I will refer you to the representation that is at the" but inadvertently permitted the line to stray upwards and run into the line above? And then, "for the purpose of smoothing the text out and recommencing with a perfectly horizontal line" Williams then wrote a parenthesis in the middle of the sentence and then finished the sentence with "commencement of this record." Is that correct? If so, I only have these follow up questions, and then we'll move on:

1. Why would Williams have used a parenthesis in the middle of his sentence?

2. Why does the phrase "I will refer" appear to rise purposely to avoid the top of the parenthesis?

Again, thanks for your input.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Do you dispute that the phrase “I will refer you to the representation that is at the commencement of this record” is a secondary emendation?


Yes.

If so, why?


For reasons already highlighted.

1) There is no compelling reason to believe this. Your attempt to make an argument for this isn't compelling to anyone except the apologists. And you guys have an established track record of creating wild ideas and then immediately backing down from them.
2) You're still not dealing with the Parrish manuscript. If these are two manuscripts both copies of a source document, and this phrase was added afterwards, then there should be some evidence that Parrish also added it after his manuscript had been written.

What evidence would you marshall to contest the three points I made above?


1) The fact that your "points" don't appear to hold any water, and are based on a rejection of the evidences as opposed to a dependence upon them. You have to reject every thing that points to dictation, in order to even begin entertaining this wild theory about an emendation. It has weak written all over it. Sorry.
2) The fact that you have a history of seeing things that simply aren't there. This isn't a moot point, it is demonstrable fact.

Do you contest that Williams inserted two lines into the space alotted to one?


No. I contest your explanation because your explanation fails to explain why the first line rode upwards until it crashed into the line above. That is the only reason there was space for the so-called "emendation." If the space provided was made by accident, then it makes no sense to say the usage for it was premeditated.

Do you contest that the initial phrase “I will refer” rises to avoid the parenthesis?


Yes. Instead, I see the parenthesis placed as to avoid collision with the "I will refer" phrase.

Do you contest that the parenthesis appears to be written over the top of the word “the” in the line below? If so, please give your reasons.


Yes. Brent has provided photographic evidence to support his contention that the "the" was written afterwards. I'm inclined to agree for several reasons:

1) It resonates well with the dominating theory of dictation.
2) The Parrish manuscript is still being ignored.
3) Brent doesn't have a history of seeing things that aren't there.

Again, I intend to cite some of the elements I see as posing problems for the dictation theory in order to assess the explanations being offered. We’ll stick with this issue of Abr. 1:12 for a while longer and then we’ll move on to something else.


Please, by all means, keep it up. Whatever it takes to keep Brent involved. ;)
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Paul Osborne

Post by _Paul Osborne »

1) Both manuscripts begin with Abraham 1:4. So what happened to the first three verses if there was a mysterious "complete" source document from which these were copied?


There is no “complete” source document known to exist in which the two manuscripts in question can be shown to be copies of a previously completed work. However, fragmented phrases and certain concepts of the first few verses of Abraham are contained in the EAG. As curious as it may be, the absense of the first three verses in the two manuscripts allows us to conclude that these manuscripts (including an alleged source document) were not fit to go to the press.

On one hand, it can be argued that the EAG was developed first and may have later been used as a guide to help the prophet in his dictation process; while on the other hand, it can be argued that the EAG as presently constituted was used to interpret a previously translated work.

A complete and honest examination of the whole Book of Abraham saga will shed light on which of the two theories above is true. Hence, both theories cannot be true – only one fits within the fabric of the makings of the Book of Abraham whereby the whole tapestry may be seen in its true form.

Paul O
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

You also failed to address item #2 above: “I will refer” clearly rises to avoid the top of the parenthesis. How do you explain this if the parenthesis was not written first?


Will, I think I understand what you are saying now. I reread your posts and I think I get the gist of it. You're saying the entire two lines was a later addition, not just the phrase beginning with "commencement." Ok.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume this is what happened. Now please explain how this is supposed to undermine the dictation scenario. What's to stop someone from adding a phrase back into a dictated text?

It seems to me that this would weigh against a copying scenario just the same. In fact, it seems to be even more problematic for you guys since it would beg the question: Why didn't the scribe copy this from the sourse document?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

So, if I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that Williams immediately followed "-edge of this alter" with "I will refer you to the representation that is at the" but inadvertently permitted the line to stray upwards and run into the line above?


Yes.

And then, "for the purpose of smoothing the text out and recommencing with a perfectly horizontal line" Williams then wrote a parenthesis in the middle of the sentence and then finished the sentence with "commencement of this record." Is that correct? If so, I only have these follow up questions, and then we'll move on:

1. Why would Williams have used a parenthesis in the middle of his sentence?


I'm not convinced that this represents an actual parenthesis. It doesn't appear to be used anywhere else in the manuscript, so why here? It looks like a messed up C to me, though I could be wrong. Parentheses come in pairs, and I don't see one enclosing the phrase. Why not? Did this professional scribe suddenly forget he was supposed to be writing an enclosed phrase, just two seconds later? And again, why doesn't Parrish use parentheses?

2. Why does the phrase "I will refer" appear to rise purposely to avoid the top of the parenthesis?


The Parrish manuscript shows problems in this exact area. I don't think this is a coincidence. Whatever the problem was, it caused some diversion on the scribe's part, which resulted in the text wandering upwards.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Paul Osborne

Post by _Paul Osborne »

) It is superfluous to hire two different people to simply "copy" such a short text.


It may be superfluous from a certain point of view; but on the other hand it may be entirely necessary from another point of view. Remember what happened to the prophet when he lost the 116 page manuscript? The Lord chastened him severely.

So, to a great degree, is seems wise that multiple originals of an inspired work be produced in order to guard against an unforeseen loss. It may simply be a matter of not putting the eggs in one basket whereby a thief can come and steal it and the owner suffer a total loss.

The use of multiple scribes makes for a great training ground - a place like the schooling of prophets whereby appointed brethren learn first hand how the Lord works through his seer, Joseph Smith.

Paul O
_Paul Osborne

Post by _Paul Osborne »

have a great day!
_William Schryver
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Post by _William Schryver »

KG:

Will, I think I understand what you are saying now. I reread your posts and I think I get the gist of it. You're saying the entire two lines was a later addition, not just the phrase beginning with "commencement." Ok.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume this is what happened. Now please explain how this is supposed to undermine the dictation scenario. What's to stop someone from adding a phrase back into a dictated text?

It seems to me that this would weigh against a copying scenario just the same. In fact, it seems to be even more problematic for you guys since it would beg the question: Why didn't the scribe copy this from the sourse document?

I’m glad you get what I am saying now.

As for your questions, I will simply reply that they are very good questions. And I don’t think I have a good reply for either of them. A secondary emendation could most certainly be made in a dictated text. I’m not sure I understand what you mean by your second question, but my only reply would be that if there were a Ms. Q from which these documents were copied, then it must not have been clear at this point, because both scribes struggle here, and the consistency you would expect in simultaneous transcripts of an oral dictation is not apparent – indeed, the two manuscripts manifest significant differences at Abr. 1:12.

I'm not convinced that this represents an actual parenthesis. It doesn't appear to be used anywhere else in the manuscript, so why here? It looks like a messed up C to me, though I could be wrong. Parentheses come in pairs, and I don't see one enclosing the phrase. Why not? Did this professional scribe suddenly forget he was supposed to be writing an enclosed phrase, just two seconds later? And again, why doesn't Parrish use parentheses?

All good questions. I don’t have any good answers for them. I do think we’re dealing with a parenthesis here, however – not a capital “C”. As I said, I think this is a secondary emendation. I think Williams commenced the emendation with the parenthesis, realized he lacked the room to make the entire insertion, moved up above the parenthesis and commenced with “I will refer” and avoided the top of the parenthesis in the process, strayed into the line above while recognizing the need to leave room for the remainder of his insertion, finished the insertion with “commencement . . . “ following the parenthesis, and then simply forgot to use a closing parenthesis.

Could all of this have still happened within the context of a dictation scenario? Yes. This entire issue may have no real relevance to the greater argument unless it can be tied to other pieces of evidence in such a way as to relate it to the bigger argument.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by your second question, but my only reply would be that if there were a Ms. Q from which these documents were copied, then it must not have been clear at this point, because both scribes struggle here


But if we assume they were copied from a source document, then this poses serious problems for your theory. This is why I suggested from the outset that you seem to be throwing out Gee's original claim that the entire Book of Abraham "as published," had already preexisted these manuscripts. The text you now claim to be a later emendation, is in fact in the published version. It can not have been both part of the original translation, as well as a later emendation. Something has got to give here.

the consistency you would expect in simultaneous transcripts of an oral dictation is not apparent – indeed, the two manuscripts manifest significant differences at Abr. 1:12.


The simple fact that both manuscripts manifest a scribal problem in the same exact spot, is a significant similarity by definition. The only difference is in how each scribe dealt with the problem. But this is really beside the point, I believe, in making the determination between dictation or copying. You would expect two different scribes to act differently sometimes, depending on where he was at the point of a dictated correction. Again, I don't see any problems for a dictated scenario. It is all easily explained in my view.

I do think we’re dealing with a parenthesis here, however – not a capital “C”. As I said, I think this is a secondary emendation. I think Williams commenced the emendation with the parenthesis, realized he lacked the room to make the entire insertion, moved up above the parenthesis and commenced with “I will refer” and avoided the top of the parenthesis in the process, strayed into the line above while recognizing the need to leave room for the remainder of his insertion, finished the insertion with “commencement . . . “ following the parenthesis, and then simply forgot to use a closing parenthesis.


That is a lot of assumption based theory. There are too many questionable variables that need to be correct in order for the whole thing to work. I don't think any of these variables are likely. If it were not for the Parrish manuscript I think you could be somewhat successful pushing this theory. But the Parrish manuscript really puts the whole thing into its proper perspective I think.

Could all of this have still happened within the context of a dictation scenario? Yes. This entire issue may have no real relevance to the greater argument unless it can be tied to other pieces of evidence in such a way as to relate it to the bigger argument.


Good. But can you see how your argument might endanger the copyist theory?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
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