An Uncomfortable Conversation re Doubts

[_truth dancer]

Actually, MG, I have to take back some of what I stated and acknowledge that there are those who are still kind to those who do not believe.

You being one of them! :-)

The former Relief Society president in my ward is very kind to me... I told her when I first moved into this ward that I was a non-believer, I have never been to Relief Society in this ward, nor do I attend SS, and she is very kind and unconcerned about my personal viewpoint. There are also a few women in the ward who are always friendly. We never discuss my beliefs, but I do feel they are genuine and caring women. And one of my best LDS friends is a professor of Anthropology and (non-traditional), member, he is one of the most kind hearted people I have ever met and totally understands why members leave.

So, I take back what I said. There are those members who are still kind and caring to non-believers.

:-)

Now... to the shifting paradigm idea... (smile). I did that continuously since about a year after my conversion. At some point I had to shift so much that the paradigm no longer looked anything like the original story. :-) But beyond that, I see no reason whatsoever to keep shifting a paradigm to try to believe something that really feels so wrong, so unholy, so against what I believe is the Divine.

I no longer even want to try to make what I believe is holy into something wrong or something that feels cruel and hurtful into something wonderful and of God.

Regardless of what is or is not truth... I feel the best way to exist is by embracing one's highest good, living in harmony with one's most holy and loving essence.

The LDS church just does not, in any way, shape, or form come close to this for me. In fact for me, it is the opposite in many ways.

In addition, shifting a paradigm seems necessary only if you really believe the church is what it claims to be, and you want to make reality fit into it, In other words, if you want to embrace the story somehow. I do not in any way want to be a part of the CKHL, or have anything to do with the God of scripture or the one Joseph Smith claimed to see. I just seriously find nothing good in this. It is not appealing in the least so why would I want to find a way to keep believing it?

Does that make sense?

I'm glad for those people who find value in the LDS church, and any church or belief system, but for me, it seems to hurt more than help.

:-)

I'll go check out your link...

~dancer~

[_The Nehor]

Anyone who struggles has obviously been led away by Satan, commited some serious sin, or was offended by a member.

I am often offended by members. Joseph Smith offends me. Boyd Packer offends me. Dallin Oaks offends me. Brigham Young offends me. Joseph F Smith really offends me. The list is almost endless.

Yet I remain. *sigh*

If you feel like a martyr there's always the way out.

[_harmony]

If you feel like a martyr there's always the way out.

Joseph was a martyr. That is not how I feel. What I feel is infinitely sad because the church has the potential to be something truly divine... but it isn't. Instead it is mundane, pedestrian, shallow. It should be leading the world and showing the world the benefits of living the gospel of Jesus Christ; it follows instead. It's faithful members should be so faithful they're almost translated; we aren't.

Infinitely sad, at the waste, the pettiness, the foolishness that passes for leadership in the church.

[_Yoda]

Well, too bad I wasn't that friend, as we'd still be friends regardless. Indeed, I would consider it incumbent upon me to strengthen that friendship even further given the seriousness with which I take the Gospel and the need to share it and work through times of doubt or questioning within the context of true friendship, which is, without doubt, the best context within which to work.

So sorry your friend is behaving in this manner...

See now, once again I've had you pegged wrong. I assumed you came off as being abbrasive, condescending and arragant - always.

I guess it's true that you can't always tell who a person is when you only see them driving in heavy traffic.

I always knew Coggins was a softie!

;)

[_Yoda]

Anyone who struggles has obviously been led away by Satan, commited some serious sin, or was offended by a member.

I am often offended by members. Joseph Smith offends me. Boyd Packer offends me. Dallin Oaks offends me. Brigham Young offends me. Joseph F Smith really offends me. The list is almost endless.

Yet I remain. *sigh*

If you feel like a martyr there's always the way out.

Nehor, you really disappoint me. Why do you insist on coming across as a stereotypical arrogant LDS male who doesn't have the capacity to view things outside the box?

[_Yoda]

We ended the conversation, but I realized that this person, who has been a friend for the last thirteen years or so, and for whom I care much, is no longer "comfortable" with me; sort of views me as having a disease--he mentioned that I have driven away the Spirit, etc. He will likely now warn some of our other mutual friends about me. I only confided because of our friendship and because he inquired re my thoughts on someone doubting. I feel a little bit sick inside. I wonder why we cannot openly discuss these things without fear of losing friends and family; without being viewed as diseased or a tool of Satan. Yuck. Kind of ruined my day. Sometimes I think my desire to present myself in an authentic way is a drawback, and that if I were better at faking it, life would be easier.

I can appreciate your situation, mms. It always baffles me when members act this way. Those who understand the gospel should understand that, as Coggins pointed out, if someone is struggling, this is not the time to isolate that person. Christ certainly didn't do that. You can show compassion toward another person, simply because they ARE your friend. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with them...but the friendship you have built that with person should be key to the standing you have with them.

When I lived in Orem, Utah, it was one of the darkest times I experienced in the Church. The members in the Ward I attended were very "clique-ish" and when my husband lost his job, the Bishop called him into his office and said that since he was unemployed, he wasn't fit to hold a calling. My husband looked that bishop in the eye and said, "Bishop...you can choose to utilize me in the Ward or not....You can attempt to humiliate me, etc....but you cannot keep me or my family from walking through those chapel doors on Sunday. And we will walk through those doors with our heads held high because we believe in this gospel, and that is why we're here."

My husband had a job opportunity in North Carolina, and we moved shortly after that incident. In moving to the South, I felt like I was "home" as far as the Church was concerned. People here, "in the mission field", actually show an appreciation for the time and talents you commit to callings, etc.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Anyone who struggles has obviously been led away by Satan, commited some serious sin, or was offended by a member.

I am often offended by members. Joseph Smith offends me. Boyd Packer offends me. Dallin Oaks offends me. Brigham Young offends me. Joseph F Smith really offends me. The list is almost endless.

Yet I remain. *sigh*

From your perspective, why do you stay?

[_The Nehor]

Anyone who struggles has obviously been led away by Satan, commited some serious sin, or was offended by a member.

I am often offended by members. Joseph Smith offends me. Boyd Packer offends me. Dallin Oaks offends me. Brigham Young offends me. Joseph F Smith really offends me. The list is almost endless.

Yet I remain. *sigh*

If you feel like a martyr there's always the way out.

Nehor, you really disappoint me. Why do you insist on coming across as a stereotypical arrogant LDS male who doesn't have the capacity to view things outside the box?

Awwwwwwww.....Now I'm gonna cry.

There, I broke the mold :)

The problem with viewing the box from the outside is that unless the box is open you never see what is inside. All you see is a big brown thing with 'this side up' and 'fragile' on it. Since your metaphor made no sense to me I decided to respond with one of my own. Do you like?

[_harmony]

Anyone who struggles has obviously been led away by Satan, commited some serious sin, or was offended by a member.

I am often offended by members. Joseph Smith offends me. Boyd Packer offends me. Dallin Oaks offends me. Brigham Young offends me. Joseph F Smith really offends me. The list is almost endless.

Yet I remain. *sigh*

From your perspective, why do you stay?

Because occasionally, there is a flash of true brilliance that is breathtaking. Because, occasionally, the spirit is strong and true. I'm not in the church because the church is true; I'm in the church because I can find the gospel anywhere, and the church is as good a place as any.

You see, I don't see the gospel as authority or ordinances or obedience. I see the gospel as loving strangers and those who have shown themselves to be my enemies as much as I love my family and my neighbors. I see the gospel as the opportunity to let what little light I have shine as brightly as I can. I see the gospel as the love of God brought to me personally in the form of a little girl, saved from a kidnapping, my name echoing through my house when there's no one home but me, and the warm sweet peace of knowing that while my son may not outlive me, he will not die from Hodgkin's Disease. If I cannot be an angel, I can at least be the best Harmony I can be. I cannot deny the presence of God in my life. God, however, is not the same as the church. And I remain skeptical and wary of our leaders. They have shown their true colors too often in the past.

[edited for clarity]

[_Jason Bourne]

I just had a conversation with a good friend who was asking about another good friend's apparent lack of testimony and lingering doubts about the Church. This friend had no idea that I am struggling with the same issues. ("For those who do not know me" (just kidding--little testimony meeting speak, there) . . . but seriously, I am an active (Church every week unless out of town, etc.) member in my thirties, High Priest, returned missionary, etc.).

I have difficulty not being honest about my own struggle, so I told this person that I was having some similar struggles. He appeared somewhat shocked and we began an uncomfortable discussion about what gave rise to my doubts and struggle. I mentioned some of the things causing me difficulty, and he told me that none of it matters as long as the Spirit tells me its true (I understand his position and told him so). He blamed me for our other friend's issues, stating "Now I see where he is getting it from" (not actually true that he is getting it from me, but that is not important).

We ended the conversation, but I realized that this person, who has been a friend for the last thirteen years or so, and for whom I care much, is no longer "comfortable" with me; sort of views me as having a disease--he mentioned that I have driven away the Spirit, etc. He will likely now warn some of our other mutual friends about me. I only confided because of our friendship and because he inquired re my thoughts on someone doubting. I feel a little bit sick inside. I wonder why we cannot openly discuss these things without fear of losing friends and family; without being viewed as diseased or a tool of Satan. Yuck. Kind of ruined my day. Sometimes I think my desire to present myself in an authentic way is a drawback, and that if I were better at faking it, life would be easier.

(Note--I know some of you have suffered far more than I have in your relationships with family, friends, etc, and I do not mean to suggest that this little instance is anything extraordinary, as it pales in comparison to what others have gone through and are going through. Just thought I'd share, since I do not feel like doing anything else at the moment (like working!).)

It is a sad thing. But it is fact of human nature. You are part of a tribe with strong views. We are the Only True and Living Church....so when one who has been such a strong part of the tribe falters it is a threat to the other tribe members. If indeed the Church is what it claims they would have to see you in some negative light in order to preserve their own position. There has to be something wrong with you. If you conclude that the Church is wrong and they do not you are not in tune with the spirit, the spirit has left you, or you maybe are sinning thus do not have the spirit-SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU. If not then they would have to explore the possibilty that the Church is not what it claims, their tribe has led them wrong....this is very hard and uncomfortable for people to do.