Polygamy---Commanded by God in the Old Testament or Tolerated?

[_charity]

I'm thinking you are one of those who thinks they know all about the CKHL. OK, Charity. ;-)

I don't know at all. I know we will be different, because we will be like God. Perfect, all loving, none of the ugly human emotions.

Sorry but the idea of claiming that horrific things are actually wonderful, and we will change our hearts to believe horrific things are really great, just doesn't quite work for me! :-) The twisting and contorting that goes along with this makes me dizzy.

Your belief that something is horrific may have no basis in fact. I have heard young women say they think that the process of giving birth is horrific. I never had a "horrific" birth experience. I delivered 6 children. They thought I was just trying to convince them when I knew the "real" truth, and it was horrible. Who is twisting and dizzy here?

My belief about polygamy has nothing to do with jealousy, possessiveness, or anything of this sort. It has to do with evolved humankind, with the development of emotional intimacy, with the harmony and balance of life, with the depth of connection and unity emerging in our universe, etc. etc. etc.

Sorry, dancer, but the process that is happening right now is the polarization of the human experience. We aren't all moving toward the good. We are moving from the middle to the ends. There is more good. There is more evil.

Polygamy is not bringing forth more wonderful and magnificent aspects of what is possible. It is a reversion to a very animalistic form of mating... one that is clearly maladaptive for our species. One that is counterproductive to life, to the survival of children, and to the well being of adults. But as I said, even beyond this, it is completely at odds with how our universe works, IMHO.

Mating? You think that is what polygamy is about? I would agree with you, if that is what it was. But it is the ultimate in subjection of the personal will to the welfare of others. That is the most ennobling act there is. How is it counterproductive Old Testament life, to the survival of children?

I do not think a heavenly system where women must share a husband, and where a man has multiple partners is holy or kind or loving. It is primitive, animalistic and totally against the harmony and balance of our universe. Now, if women had multiple partners as well, that would be a different story.

You have yet to show me anything about the harmony and balance of the universe. Please explain what the harmony and balance of the universe is.

If folks want to engage in any form of alternative mating/partnering, fine. If it makes people happy to have multiple partners, sleep around, share whatever, I truly do not care. But please don't tell me the harem system is of Divine origin.

I have observed some clear patterns in women who think living in a harem is a good thing. These women will be a great match for those men who are into sperm donation but who don't care for a relationship with women.

The harem system is Satan's invention. That isn't what will happen in the Celestial Kingdom.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Charity...

I don't know at all. I know we will be different, because we will be like God. Perfect, all loving, none of the ugly human emotions.

Like I said, you seem to think you know how the CKHL will be. Good for you. :-)

Your belief that something is horrific may have no basis in fact. I have heard young women say they think that the process of giving birth is horrific. I never had a "horrific" birth experience. I delivered 6 children. They thought I was just trying to convince them when I knew the "real" truth, and it was horrible. Who is twisting and dizzy here?

Well, we can argue what is or is not horrific. From reading and listening to the stories of many women who had the misfortune of being part of a polygamous system, I hold to the idea that commanding girls and young women, to join a harem (and all that goes with this), is horrific. I also hold slavery, torture, child abuse, etc. etc. etc. as horrific. :-)

Sorry, dancer, but the process that is happening right now is the polarization of the human experience. We aren't all moving toward the good. We are moving from the middle to the ends. There is more good. There is more evil.

You need to read up a bit on the history of mating in the human. :-) Humans have come a long way... male parental investment is a miraculous invention as is emotional intimacy, bonding between a man and woman, etc. All very recent additions to life on our planet.

Mating? You think that is what polygamy is about? I would agree with you, if that is what it was. But it is the ultimate in subjection of the personal will to the welfare of others. That is the most ennobling act there is. How is it counterproductive Old Testament life, to the survival of children?

Please provide ANY evidence whatsoever that Joseph Smith or BY mentioned ANYTHING at all about polygamy being about love? If you read the scriptures you will KNOW that LDS belief is that polygamy is to raise a "righteous seed." That is it Charity. Twist it as you wish... this is scriptural.

Being a part of the polygamous mating system may be about a woman subjecting herself to be used by a man... personally I do not see this as holy. Holiness to me is about bringing the most care, compassion, love and peace to the world. The harem lifestyle is primitive and does the EXACT opposite. It takes our species back about 10 million years.

You have yet to show me anything about the harmony and balance of the universe. Please explain what the harmony and balance of the universe is.

Think Yin/Yang here. The universe is one of balance and harmony. Nothing about Yang/yin,yin,yin,yin,yin,yin,yin,yin,yin. :-)

As I said, a man with multiple women by virtue of its construction eliminates the possibility of harmony, intimacy, equality, balance, etc. It creates a system where WOMEN bond, (under ideal circumstances, and thinking back into our animal past).

The harem system is Satan's invention. That isn't what will happen in the Celestial Kingdom.

Of course it is not. Various animals use this form of mating. Satan had nothing to do with it. Sorry Charity.

Rich and powerful men have, throughout the ages, (well at least since patriarchy began), owned multiple women. It is not about God or Satan. It is about power. Simple.

Nothing loving about it.

~dancer~

[_charity]

Truth dancer, from the beginning of time, there have been opposites. God vs Satan. Good vs evil. Anything good in this life, Satan has counterfeited a false and evil version of it.

The patriarchal order vs patriarchy.
Agency vs license.
The list goes on and on. If it is evil, Satan is at the head of it.

Plural marriage is God's plan, Satan came up with harems.

[_Yoda]

Liz and truth dancer, you are both looking at the subject from a from a very wordly point of view. Can you love only one child? Does loving a second child take away from your ability to love the first one? And when you spend time with the second child, are you cheating the first out of your attention?

Just like you don't buy the "not in my neighborhood" argument, I don't buy this one.

The parent/child relationship is a completely different dynamic than the husband/wife relationship. One of the reasons I resent this comparison is that it puts the wife in a comparable child's role, with the husband in the parent role. Again, that's not how marriage should operate.

I'll go into detail more later after my toddler is in bed.

I probably haven't fully explained my position that well and have more to say.

Thanks for your patience.

;)

Hey, I didn't know you had a special deal with charity to treat the subject with kid gloves. It was my responsibility to read the thread before jumping in. My apologies.

My comment was crass, even though it did not employ vulgar words per se. Its tone was crass. My bad.
charity

That's ok, Trev. Thanks. :)

I really do want to encourage your continued input.

Thanks, everyone, for your participation.

:)

[_truth dancer]

Truth dancer, from the beginning of time, there have been opposites. God vs Satan. Good vs evil. Anything good in this life, Satan has counterfeited a false and evil version of it.

The patriarchal order vs patriarchy.
Agency vs license.
The list goes on and on. If it is evil, Satan is at the head of it.

One of the problems I had as a believer was the need to twist hurtful, unhealthy, and yes, even horrific things into something good.

Name things however you like... hurting another is hurting another. Cruelty is cruelty. Unhealthiness is unhealthiness. Harm is harm. Manipulation is manipulation. Degradation is degradation.

Plural marriage is God's plan, Satan came up with harems.

LOL! OK... so now Satan is behind the mating system of all the animals that still engage in this form of mating? :-)

Wow!

Charity, this line of apologetics is really silliness... seriously! It makes no difference if Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, Abraham, Garfield, or some primitive powerful guy decides to own women, or create a system where he gets multiple sexual partners.

It is what it is.

A system where rich and/or powerful men gain/own/possess/have multiple women.


I'll leave it at that!

:-)

~dancer~

[_Yoda]

You haven't heard of artificial insemination? In vitro fertilization hasn't reached your neighborhood?

(Personally, I'm betting that God has an even better understanding of reproductive biology than my local fertility clinic does. But I'm just a wild and crazy guy. Maybe I'm way out there in left field, and we've completely caught up to the Divine Mind on this one.)

Let's take a look at Dr. Peterson's comment, since he is well respected in the BYU community and in the LDS apologist world.

Dr. Peterson is stating an interesting observation here...one I have mused for a long time. If we, as mere human beings, are able to conceptualize and carry out such things as artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization, does it not stand to reason that if we actually reach Godhood, and obtain infinite knowledge, that we would have the ability to create spirit children by means other than "celestial intercourse"?

Does this line of thinking not significantly change the perception of the female role in the eternities? Does it not make more sense to think of the female as, yes, a nurturer, but also as a partner with her husband in creating worlds and spirits in a much different sense? Is this not what we are taught in the temple? That we will be Gods and Goddesses....Priests and Priestesses?

This is a much different role than being an eternal birthing machine.

Charity, you claim that I am looking at polygamy from "a worldly point of view".

How is striving for an exclusive emotional connection with your husband, who you are sealed for time and all eternity to, worldly?

I still don't understand, and probably never will. I guess you guys who make it to the CK will just have to come visit me in one of the lower kingdoms. LOL

[_Inconceivable]

You haven't a friggin clue.

What I posted is from the journals of the women involved...

Charity,

Are you busy researching to back up these unsustainable comments or are you going to let these whoppers go too?

This is the reason why you are not taken seriously by many members here. Most of your opinions are formulated out of the vast library of fiction contained only in your mind.

You state trends as if they were backed up by solid evidence, yet there is little to substantiate your claims.

You can do better than this.

Now that you've had time to think about your nutty claim, do you want to just forget about it (and hope we do too), or will you put up?

I've decided it's healthier for me not to hold my breath.

[_Gazelam]

Liz,

This is a much different role than being an eternal birthing machine.

How about the role of Eternal nurturer? Does this fit more into your personal belief system?

[_Yoda]

Liz,

This is a much different role than being an eternal birthing machine.

How about the role of Eternal nurturer? Does this fit more into your personal belief system?

Yes, it does.

But the eternal nurturing role still doesn't mesh with the supposed eternal need for polygamy.

[_charity]

Let's take a look at Dr. Peterson's comment, since he is well respected in the BYU community and in the LDS apologist world.

Dr. Peterson is stating an interesting observation here...one I have mused for a long time. If we, as mere human beings, are able to conceptualize and carry out such things as artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization, does it not stand to reason that if we actually reach Godhood, and obtain infinite knowledge, that we would have the ability to create spirit children by means other than "celestial intercourse"?

Does this line of thinking not significantly change the perception of the female role in the eternities? Does it not make more sense to think of the female as, yes, a nurturer, but also as a partner with her husband in creating worlds and spirits in a much different sense? Is this not what we are taught in the temple? That we will be Gods and Goddesses....Priests and Priestesses?

This is a much different role than being an eternal birthing machine.

Being pregnant and giving birth were some of the happiest most fulfilling times of my life. I hiope I have those experiences ahead of me. When I was pregnant I didn't think of myself as a mortal birthing machine. Why should I think a celestial experience will be an eternal birthing machine?

Charity, you claim that I am looking at polygamy from "a worldly point of view".

How is striving for an exclusive emotional connection with your husband, who you are sealed for time and all eternity to, worldly?

I still don't understand, and probably never will. I guess you guys who make it to the CK will just have to come visit me in one of the lower kingdoms. LOL

Your claim for exclusivity is what is the wordly part. We don't know how we will feel when we are perfect. When we can love without condition, without possession, without jealousy and envy. I am not trying to tell anyone how they will feel. I am asking for people to understand that they can't know how they will feel under those circumstances.