Polygamy---Commanded by God in the Old Testament or Tolerated?

[_Yoda]

I do understand. You keep saying I should be more interested in helping. WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HELP? Please answer that question. If you say, "understanding" I think I will scream. I DO understand how they feel. And how does that help?

It helps because it validates my feelings. It validates the fact that I'm not crazy for feeling this way. If you at least acknowledge that this isn't a piece of cake for you to accept because of your love and commitment to your husband, I'm more inclined to listen to what you have to say.

Let me explain, Charity. On the MAD board, when I brought this up, I was immediately torn into by women who were trying to defend polygamy. They seemed to think that because I was a member, and I had conflicts and questions about this practice, that I was denigrating, or tearing down those Mormon pioneer women who faithfully practiced this. THAT IS NOT WHAT I WAS DOING AT ALL. I have the utmost respect for these women. My great-great aunt was ONE of these women! I admire their strength and their dedication to their faith. That's not what this is about at all....but that's what I was constantly accused of.

I know that you didn't mean it that way, but your saying that my view of polygamy was worldly was a condesention to my view of this, which is why I brought up President Kimball's quote.

My issue is not that plural marriage exists in the Celestial Kingdom. I'm not suggesting that plural families who have been sealed together be broken up.

My issue is with the requirement.

How could a loving Heavenly Father require this type of practice?

And how is it worldly to desire an eternal exclusive relationship with my husband, where he cleaves unto me and no other and I cleave unto him and no other?

[_Jason Bourne]

The truth is indisputable that God has no problem with polygamy. We worship the God of Abraham Isacc and Jacob, with promisesd made to each of them that we strive to reach.

We need to stop trying to conform the teachings of God to what we want them to be, and try harder to conform ourselves to the doctrines of God.

The truth that is indisputable is that you have yet to show that God wanted this in the Old Testament. Course Joseph Smith really could have been told by God to do polygamy. I am skeptical. And one wonder if polygamy was so important to God why did he let his Churh be to beat up over it, let his leaders say over and over that he would never do away with it and then when it was clear that the the US Government was going to destroy God's church, well then he said to stop doing it. But even then the leaders did not obey, they kept it up until finally the US government had really had it. Then the Church gave it up and became very anti polygamy and they still are. If polygamy was so important why didn't God persuade the US government to accpet the Church doing it, or why didn't he pull and Old Testament style rain fire from heaven act?

[_charity]

Charity

have you ever thought that what you think about God's ideas really are not God's ideas and that you just might be wrong? Have you considered that reasonable persons can conclude that certain things, like polygamy, just are really not good things and rather then try to make a square peg fit in a round hole with explanations (like IT IS GOD"S WAY TO SEE IF WE CAN BE UNSELFISH< OR REALLY OBEDIENT) that in any other situation we would find nonsensical, they reject it. Why is it the LDS party line is alway right. Think woman! Maybe, just maybe, it really was and is bad.

Since it is scripture, Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Coventants, I don't beleive it is wrong WHEN God commands it. So, no, I can't be wrong about that.

And maybe a clue that you are on the wrong side of this is the fact that really, you do not want to share your husband but you twist thing to make it seem like something noble if you do, when it is not noble at all.

I don't know how I would have felt if I had ever been in a position where we were called to make our marriage plural. My husband and I have a phenomenol marriage. We have been married 46 years. According to the triarchic theory of love we have a consummate relationship. A "perfect" marriage. But I suppose a person never really knows how they would feel until they are in the situation. But like I said, we have discussed this deeply, and I am confident that I would have reacted as I posted earlier in the thread.

Oh my GOSH!!!!!! Utterly and simply AMAZING!!!

I have always expressed my position that there is a lot for all of us to learn. In many ways, we cannot anticipate how our understanding will change. Since I have a strong testimony of the Church, that the Savior leads it, that God commands us, I know that our knowledge will increase in the ways we have been told it wil.

[_Inconceivable]

I started a point by point reply to inconceivable, but then I erased it.

He obviously cannot understand anything about selfless love, so why even try.

But it does sadden me that someone can see so little above what a small and petty mind can envision.

For posters and lurkers, I hope you can rise above that level, and understand that people, both men and women, can be far better than that. People can truly put another person's welfare above their own, they can sacrifice so that others may share in a good life, they can become Christ-like in their devotion to others.

Charity,

I have challenged you to back up your thoughtless conjecture on numerous occasions. You shrink from each challenge. Whether I am capable of selfless love has no bearing on this:

35 Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

(Book of Mormon | Jacob 2:35)

This entire chapter is devoted to the evils of Mormon adultery. It has one poorly worded verse that sexual deviants use as an "out".


[i]30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

(Book of Mormon - Work of Fiction | Jacob 2:30)[/i]

Placed in context with the chapter surrounding it, it is as dangerous as your lack of understanding of selfless love.

In many cases, Poligamy is an act of violence against women and children. When many hearts die, it is opposite of selfless love.


Isn't this about where you get all flustered and bear your testimony?

[_Jason Bourne]

If God commands it, it isn't horrible, therefore my idea changes.

I don;t know. Supposedly God has comanded some things that seem pretty horrible. Kill your son but not really, just testin ya! Wander around for 40 years in the wilderness till all the old folks who had doubts die, kill all of the enemies-men, women and children, and because the poor king did not do it he lost his crown, flood the whole earth......AND GIVE ME THE PROPHET YOUR WIFE-nah, just testing you, well you Heber, but not you Henry.

Damn! I do not think I would test my kids that way. Seems pretty cruel to me. But maybe God really does demand this type of devotion.

That is all I am going to say to you dancer. You don't want to accommodate and that is fine. Assmiliation happens all the time.

AND RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!!!!

[_charity]

I do understand. You keep saying I should be more interested in helping. WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HELP? Please answer that question. If you say, "understanding" I think I will scream. I DO understand how they feel. And how does that help?

It helps because it validates my feelings. It validates the fact that I'm not crazy for feeling this way. If you at least acknowledge that this isn't a piece of cake for you to accept because of your love and commitment to your husband, I'm more inclined to listen to what you have to say.

I totally understand how you feel. You aren't crazy for feeling as you do. Look, liz, I am 67 years old, married 46 years. Maturity is supposed to bring wisdom. I think I have earned some wisdom along the way. I just explained in a post to jason that my husband and I have a rare marriage. By one theory, it is a perfect marraige. Do I think it would have been easy? Absolutely not.

I think it would have been a tremendous amount of work. Two people don't get along perfectly. When you put 3 together, not only do you add another one in, but you have the whole dynamic of three, which is the two against one (and that could be husband/wife agaisnt wife, or even wife/wife agaisnt husband) to deal with.

I am just saying it would have been possible. God's children are often asked to do difficult things. When they accept something that is hard, He blesses them in ways we could not anticipate.

Let me explain, Charity. On the MAD board, when I brought this up, I was immediately torn into by women who were trying to defend polygamy. They seemed to think that because I was a member, and I had conflicts and questions about this practice, that I was denigrating, or tearing down those Mormon pioneer women who faithfully practiced this. THAT IS NOT WHAT I WAS DOING AT ALL. I have the utmost respect for these women. My great-great aunt was ONE of these women! I admire their strength and their dedication to their faith. That's not what this is about at all....but that's what I was constantly accused of.

I know that you didn't mean it that way, but your saying that my view of polygamy was worldly was a condesention to my view of this, which is why I brought up President Kimball's quote.

I tend to be a black and white thinker. Not much gray. We are taught that it is all God vs Satan. Everything boils down to that. We often don't see the battle drawn in those terms. We don't often see ourselves on Satan's side when we oppose God. We attribute our ideas and feelings to other sources. Many, if not most, even deny the existence of Satan, or that there is this essential contest. When polural marriage is of God, then opposition to it is of Satan.

[

My issue is not that plural marriage exists in the Celestial Kingdom. I'm not suggesting that plural families who have been sealed together be broken up. My issue is with the requirement.How could a loving Heavenly Father require this type of practice?

By saying "this type of practice" you are saying that it is horrible, awful, cruel, etc. You are refusing to admit that at some point your level of understanding and knowledge will change so that you will see it as something different.

[
And how is it worldly to desire an eternal exclusive relationship with my husband, where he cleaves unto me and no other and I cleave unto him and no other?

Liz, when I disagree with you, I am expressing my confidence that we do not fully understand all there is to know about love but will someday reach that level. Total, unconditional, perfect love. I think your worries about plural marriage do not give yourself enough credit to be able to learn a whole different level of love.

[_Jason Bourne]

Charity

have you ever thought that what you think about God's ideas really are not God's ideas and that you just might be wrong? Have you considered that reasonable persons can conclude that certain things, like polygamy, just are really not good things and rather then try to make a square peg fit in a round hole with explanations (like IT IS GOD"S WAY TO SEE IF WE CAN BE UNSELFISH< OR REALLY OBEDIENT) that in any other situation we would find nonsensical, they reject it. Why is it the LDS party line is alway right. Think woman! Maybe, just maybe, it really was and is bad.

Since it is scripture, Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Coventants, I don't beleive it is wrong WHEN God commands it. So, no, I can't be wrong about that.

Well gee LDS beleive the Bible may not be translated correctly, we do not believe any scripture is inerrent and we believe prophets are fallible. Maybe the prophets got some of these things wrong. maybe the scripture is in error. William Marks said Joseph repented of polygamy, said it was a mistake and planned to do away with it. But he was murdered before he had the chance.

And apparently it was not important enough for God to keep it around but for only about 50 years.

[_Yoda]

By saying "this type of practice" you are saying that it is horrible, awful, cruel, etc. You are refusing to admit that at some point your level of understanding and knowledge will change so that you will see it as something different.

No, you're putting words in my mouth. TD said that. I did not. I have said that I feel it is unbalanced, and that, with the current restrictions in place involving polygamy, it appears that in this type of situation, God prefers men to women. I feel that there are cases that warrant women being allowed to have more than one husband, just like in the reverse.

And, in both cases, I still feel that these cases are rare, and it should be the exception rather than the rule.

Again, my problem is with the requirement aspect. I don't have a problem accepting that the practice could exist in a righteous manner...but I think that there are a lot of things that haven't been taken into consideration that should be...such as women, in certain situations, also being allowed more than one husband.

I also think that in MOST cases, the type of existence in exaltation that should prevail is the one where one exalted man, and one exalted woman, are working side by side achieving common goals.

I totally understand how you feel. You aren't crazy for feeling as you do. Look, liz, I am 67 years old, married 46 years. Maturity is supposed to bring wisdom. I think I have earned some wisdom along the way. I just explained in a post to jason that my husband and I have a rare marriage. By one theory, it is a perfect marraige. Do I think it would have been easy? Absolutely not.

Thank you for saying that. :)

I'm 43 and have been married 21 years, so I'm no "spring chicken" at this whole marriage thing, either. LOL I invited you to this thread because I know that you have a lot to offer, and even though we disagree on issues, I appreciate your input, and willing to take your views into consideration.

[_Yoda]

Well gee LDS beleive the Bible may not be translated correctly, we do not believe any scripture is inerrent and we believe prophets are fallible. Maybe the prophets got some of these things wrong. maybe the scripture is in error. William Marks said Joseph repented of polygamy, said it was a mistake and planned to do away with it. But he was murdered before he had the chance.

And apparently it was not important enough for God to keep it around but for only about 50 years.

Jason, you bring up points here that I have mulled over myself. It seems that we, as LDS, are in constant "flux" when it comes to what is canon, what is actual revelation, and what is opinion.

It seems that, particularly in the last decade, there has been a lot of emphasis on modern revelation "trumping" prior revelation.

That's part of what makes this whole process for me so confusing. As TD stated earlier, the aspect of polygamy, as it stands now, is just not something that "feels" right, godly, or holy to me.

I would also be interested in any type of link you could provide involving the quote regarding Joseph Smith's words to William Marks.

[_charity]

Charity,

I have challenged you to back up your thoughtless conjecture on numerous occasions. You shrink from each challenge. Whether I am capable of selfless love has no bearing on this.

This entire chapter [Jacob 2] is devoted to the evils of Mormon adultery. It has one poorly worded verse that sexual deviants use as an "out". [I][I]30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Pardon me, inconceivalbe, but Jacob 2 does not use the word "Mormon" even once. And if you are going to quote Jacob to bolster up your argument in one instance, you are stuck with using the whole thing, and not trying to pass it off Sorry, you were caught in your own net on that one.

Isn't this about where you get all flustered and bear your testimony?

You have not been able to mount one argument that is even close to flustering me. Sorry, but flies are only irritating. And all you need is a swatter.