Narrow neck of land

[_harmony]

You can argue all you want. But it did occur. Of course, you can deny the historicity of the Book of Mormon. And like you said, you have the right to try to maintain your ignorance.

Charity, you don't know that any event in the Book of Mormon occurred, that any character in the Book of Mormon actually existed, that any place described in the Book of Mormon actually existed. You have faith; you don't know. Please don't make a fool of the members here by claiming that you that which is unknowable. There is nothing that supports the society described in the Book of Mormon, nothing. No artifacts, no language, no records. Please don't insist there is, unless you also provide foundation and support (which we all know you can't). There's nothing wrong with faith, but faith is not and cannot substitute for knowledge.

It is Jesus who divides people into sheep and goats. But the thing is, any goat can become a sheep if he wants to. We accept any and all who want to join us.

There you go again. There is no proof that a being named Jesus existed, that he was crucified, that he rose from the grave, that he was the son of God. You have faith that he was and that he did; I have the same faith. But neither of us have knowledge, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Please don't claim what you don't have; it undermines everything you're doing here. Say "I believe it is Jesus...". Anything more is speculation.

[_charity]

You can argue all you want. But it did occur. Of course, you can deny the historicity of the Book of Mormon. And like you said, you have the right to try to maintain your ignorance.

Charity, you don't know that any event in the Book of Mormon occurred, that any character in the Book of Mormon actually existed, that any place described in the Book of Mormon actually existed. You have faith; you don't know. Please don't make a fool of the members here by claiming that you that which is unknowable. There is nothing that supports the society described in the Book of Mormon, nothing. No artifacts, no language, no records. Please don't insist there is, unless you also provide foundation and support (which we all know you can't). There's nothing wrong with faith, but faith is not and cannot substitute for knowledge.

Harmony, the problem with most critics of the Church and the Book of Mormon is they are so limited in their ability to understand and know because they discount the Spirit. You can say I don't KNOW because you don't understand what it is to KNOW. You understand what it is to think, to try to make sense of, to figure something out logically with the very puny abilities of humans to think and understand. Much of human psychology involves the errors and distortions of human perception and cognition. We aren't very good at knowing with only our own abilities.

I do KNOW somethings. And just because you don't, doesn't mean I don't. That is one of the most arrogant of human errors.

It is Jesus who divides people into sheep and goats. But the thing is, any goat can become a sheep if he wants to. We accept any and all who want to join us.

There you go again. There is no proof that a being named Jesus existed, that he was crucified, that he rose from the grave, that he was the son of God. You have faith that he was and that he did; I have the same faith. But neither of us have knowledge, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Please don't claim what you don't have; it undermines everything you're doing here. Say "I believe it is Jesus...". Anything more is speculation.

It is only speculation to those who have denied or neglected to work to achieve a higher level of knowing. If you want to slog around in the mud looking down at your feet and never look up to see the light, that is your tragedy. It is not mine.

[_beastie]

Charity,

Do you think the followers of Heaven's Gate who killed themselves KNEW they were going to meet the mother ship and enter a new phase of existence?

[_charity]

Charity,

Do you think the followers of Heaven's Gate who killed themselves KNEW they were going to meet the mother ship and enter a new phase of existence?

I think they believed it. The Holy Ghost would not have told them to kill themselves to get to the mother ship.

[_beastie]

I think they believed it. The Holy Ghost would not have told them to kill themselves to get to the mother ship.

Well, if their beliefs were true, then the HG would have told them to do so. But you don't share their beliefs, so you can see what an irrational belief they held.

Fervency of belief does not equate accuracy of belief, absence adequate evidence.

Your internal state, which you attribute to the Holy Ghost, is a fervency of belief. It is not evidence of anything external to your state, just like the internal state of the Heaven's Gaters was not evidence of anything external to their state.

[_charity]

I think they believed it. The Holy Ghost would not have told them to kill themselves to get to the mother ship.

Well, if their beliefs were true, then the HG would have told them to do so. But you don't share their beliefs, so you can see what an irrational belief they held.

Fervency of belief does not equate accuracy of belief, absence adequate evidence.

Your internal state, which you attribute to the Holy Ghost, is a fervency of belief. It is not evidence of anything external to your state, just like the internal state of the Heaven's Gaters was not evidence of anything external to their state.

Another example of "I haven't had the experience, so you can't have either." It is a useless argument. But it may convince some people that you know what you are taking about. You are like a blind man trying to tell a sighted person he can't possibly be experiencing what he says he is, because there is no such thing a "sight."

[_harmony]

do KNOW somethings. And just because you don't, doesn't mean I don't. That is one of the most arrogant of human errors.

Actually, you are the one in error. In order to be able to say you know something, you have to be able to prove it. You can't prove the Book of Mormon; you can't prove God. No one can. You have faith; faith is a good thing to have. I have it too. But I never fall into the arrogance of saying "I know" about God. No one "knows" God. No one can prove God, not even you, no matter how much you'd like to. You don't even "know" Christ. He died long before you were born.

Faith, charity. Faith is enough. There is no need to demonstrate arrogance by claiming to know something you can't prove.

It is only speculation to those who have denied or neglected to work to achieve a higher level of knowing. If you want to slog around in the mud looking down at your feet and never look up to see the light, that is your tragedy. It is not mine.

There is no "higher level of knowing". There is only faith. And those who would claim a "higher level" claim only arrogance. God requires faith. Unless you can put your knowledge on exhibit... like produce your photographs of God... you exhibit only your own hubris. We're commanded to be humble and to have faith. Claiming anything more is claiming something we are not entitled to.

[_harmony]

Another example of "I haven't had the experience, so you can't have either." It is a useless argument. But it may convince some people that you know what you are taking about. You are like a blind man trying to tell a sighted person he can't possibly be experiencing what he says he is, because there is no such thing a "sight."

Actually, I have had your experience, charity. Several times under several different types of conditions. And yet I understand that I am not allowed to know. No one is. (That includes you). We are commanded to live by faith, not by knowledge.

[_beastie]

Another example of "I haven't had the experience, so you can't have either." It is a useless argument. But it may convince some people that you know what you are taking about. You are like a blind man trying to tell a sighted person he can't possibly be experiencing what he says he is, because there is no such thing a "sight."

Do you really imagine your fervency of belief exceeds that of people who not only killed themselves to meet the mother ship, but castrated themselves as well?

They made the ultimate sacrifice, that is how much they KNEW what they believed was true. And yet you still want to pretend that there is something about YOUR conviction that makes you REALLY know it's TRUE, and they didn't???????

Amazing. Just amazing.

[_charity]

Another example of "I haven't had the experience, so you can't have either." It is a useless argument. But it may convince some people that you know what you are taking about. You are like a blind man trying to tell a sighted person he can't possibly be experiencing what he says he is, because there is no such thing a "sight."

Actually, I have had your experience, charity. Several times under several different types of conditions. And yet I understand that I am not allowed to know. No one is. (That includes you). We are commanded to live by faith, not by knowledge.

Alma 32:26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than adesire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.
28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge. 30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own alikeness.
32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.
33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.
34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.
35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?
36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.
37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

We can know. And we are expected to work to learn and experiment on the word. My knowledge is perfect in many things. But not all things. Yet.