Narrow neck of land

Post by **_Abinadi's Fire** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:50 am

Those verses are preceded by these words:

Alma 32:17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

I see the rest of chapter 32 as a device used to provide a progressive sign in fulfillment of this request.

Post by **_charity** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:58 am

Abinadi's Fire wrote:Those verses are preceded by these words:

Alma 32:17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

I see the rest of chapter 32 as a device used to provide a progressive sign in fulfillment of this request.

You see it wrong. The way in which a person comes to know is not in calling forth a sign, even if they do it in steps. A sign is a condition that IF you will show me a sign, THEN I will believe. Alma quite clearly described a process where you believe first.

Post by **_Abinadi's Fire** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:02 am

He says even if you show no more than a "desire" to believe. I think that is an important distinction.

Post by **_beastie** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:27 am

I'm very familiar with the Book of Mormon verses.

But they don't answer my question:

Do you really imagine your fervency of belief exceeds that of people who not only killed themselves to meet the mother ship, but castrated themselves as well?

They made the ultimate sacrifice, that is how much they KNEW what they believed was true. And yet you still want to pretend that there is something about YOUR conviction that makes you REALLY know it's TRUE, and they didn't???????

Post by **_charity** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:43 am

beastie wrote:I'm very familiar with the Book of Mormon verses.

But they don't answer my question:

Do you really imagine your fervency of belief exceeds that of people who not only killed themselves to meet the mother ship, but castrated themselves as well?

They made the ultimate sacrifice, that is how much they KNEW what they believed was true. And yet you still want to pretend that there is something about YOUR conviction that makes you REALLY know it's TRUE, and they didn't???????

I am not pretending, beastie. There is a difference between testimony and fanaticism.

Post by **_beastie** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:04 am

I am not pretending, beastie. There is a difference between testimony and fanaticism.

Yeah, the difference is that you believe in your beliefs and not theirs.

Was Abraham a fanatic when he attempted to sacrifice his son? Was Nephi a fanatic when he killed Laban? Were the pioneers fanatics when they struggled across the plains, sometimes leaving bloody footprints behind?

Were they fanatics or did they simply have a testimony?

You call people fanatics when their level of belief matches yours, but they believe in the wrong thing in your world view.

Post by **_harmony** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:42 am

charity wrote:
Abinadi's Fire wrote:Those verses are preceded by these words:

Alma 32:17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

I see the rest of chapter 32 as a device used to provide a progressive sign in fulfillment of this request.

You see it wrong. ...

And you are in a position to tell someone else that their interpretation of scripture is wrong... why?

Post by **_charity** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:03 am

harmony wrote:
charity wrote:
Abinadi's Fire wrote:Those verses are preceded by these words:

Alma 32:17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

I see the rest of chapter 32 as a device used to provide a progressive sign in fulfillment of this request.

You see it wrong. ...

And you are in a position to tell someone else that their interpretation of scripture is wrong... why?

Study, experience. spiritual confirmation.

Post by **_beastie** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:06 am

Study, experience. spiritual confirmation.

And you think that people with different beliefs and interpretation than yours would not also claim the same?

Post by **_charity** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:10 am

beastie wrote:
I am not pretending, beastie. There is a difference between testimony and fanaticism.

Yeah, the difference is that you believe in your beliefs and not theirs.

Was Abraham a fanatic when he attempted to sacrifice his son? Was Nephi a fanatic when he killed Laban? Were the pioneers fanatics when they struggled across the plains, sometimes leaving bloody footprints behind?

Were they fanatics or did they simply have a testimony?

You call people fanatics when their level of belief matches yours, but they believe in the wrong thing in your world view.

fanatic= a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics.

beastie, the operant word here is uncritical. That is what sets faithful members apart from fanatics. Every member of the Church is taught, counseled, advised, cajoled to study for themselves, ponder, pray, receive their own and in groups and finally get their own spiritual confirmation, We are told not to rely on any other person, but to have our own spiritual strength. If we are studying, pondering, listening, discussing, there is a great deal of critical thought going on.

beastie wrote:
Was Abraham a fanatic when he attempted to sacrifice his son? Was Nephi a fanatic when he killed Laban? Were the pioneers fanatics when they struggled across the plains, sometimes leaving bloody footprints behind?

Abraham was told by God. Nephi was instructed by an angel. The pioneers had not choice. Fanatics drove them from their homes in the winter. That is the difference between a faithful member and a fanatic.