Narrow neck of land

[_charity]

Maybe this simple question will help.

Is it possible for a human being to be completely, utterly, 100% convinced that God told him/her something - and be wrong?

(I had an answer written, but I had timed out and it went away. So I will start again.)

To answer this question, yes, it is possible for a human being to be completely, utterly, 100% convinced that God told him/her something - and be wrong.

But you have to ask what the source of the conviction is. People can convince themselves of all kinds of things. Some people convince themselves that God has sent them a message through some natural circumstance. "I found a $10 bill, and that was God's way of telling me that I should. . . " Some people's conviction is based only on what others tell them. "Pastor Bill told me God wanted me to give my trust fund to build the church up." They can be convinced without any spiritual experience of their own. They are absolutely convinced without any spiritual experience.

[_beastie]

To answer this question, yes, it is possible for a human being to be completely, utterly, 100% convinced that God told him/her something - and be wrong.

This is the most important part of your response.

But you have to ask what the source of the conviction is. People can convince themselves of all kinds of things. Some people convince themselves that God has sent them a message through some natural circumstance. "I found a $10 bill, and that was God's way of telling me that I should. . . " Some people's conviction is based only on what others tell them. "Pastor Bill told me God wanted me to give my trust fund to build the church up." They can be convinced without any spiritual experience of their own. They are absolutely convinced without any spiritual experience.

Yes, they can be convinced without any spiritual experience of their own. They can also be convinced WITH spiritual experiences of their own.

I know you don't like listening to long things, but I strongly suggest you listen to polygamist Annie's testimony at mormonstories.com

http://mormonstories.org/?p=203

This is obviously an intelligent, informed woman speaking. And it's clear, if you listen all the way to the end, that she has an incredibly strong spiritual testimony of the principle.

[_charity]

Yes, she does. I do, too. But I know that while the "principle" is a righteous principle, we don't live it right now, and to do so would be sin. She is only missing half of it.

There is another source of incredibly strong experiences. And it isn't the right source. That could be happening in some instances.

Look, I am not going to convince you or anyone else by intelligent argument or logic or faillible reason that my sipritual witness is different from the Heaven's Gate people, or is anything other than some type of internal event dependent only on nureal firings and brain chemistry.

I will see you on the other side, and then we can discuss it when we both have all the facts.

[_harmony]

Of course, there is only one conclusion. True is true. Would you go up to your math teacher and say, "Professor Jones, you know I studied this out, and I think that 2 + 3 = 7. So I don't care if my answer doesn't match yours. My answer is just as valid as yours." Huh?

In order to use that argument, you have to prove God exists, charity. Truth is objective for math. But once you get into religion, true is subjective. So start another thread about your world-shattering proof that God exists.

So you are sick of your neighbors? They go to church all the time. They are Republicans and you are Democrats. they are going to vote to make smoking in public illegal. They don't shop at the grocery store you own in the neighborhood but go 2 miles away to shop at a store owned by their friends. Just really obnoxious people and you are sick of them. So your husband rapes the wife and beats the husband up. You and your kids set fire to their house. But that's okay. You are just really sick of them.

None of that makes them fanatics.

[_charity]

So you are sick of your neighbors? They go to church all the time. They are Republicans and you are Democrats. they are going to vote to make smoking in public illegal. They don't shop at the grocery store you own in the neighborhood but go 2 miles away to shop at a store owned by their friends. Just really obnoxious people and you are sick of them. So your husband rapes the wife and beats the husband up. You and your kids set fire to their house. But that's okay. You are just really sick of them.

None of that makes them fanatics.

I didn't make myself clear. The analogy was that the neighbors were Mormons, you were the Missourians who you said were not fanatics, but just sick of their Mormon neighbors. Even if your neighbors were a fundie polygamist sect would that justify raping and killing them? Burning down their house?

That is what the Missourians did. They got fed up with Mormons, so they raped, killed, burned and ran them out. That was why the Mormons left bloody footprints in the snow. You think they wanted to leave? They were DRIVEN out.

[_harmony]

So you are sick of your neighbors? They go to church all the time. They are Republicans and you are Democrats. they are going to vote to make smoking in public illegal. They don't shop at the grocery store you own in the neighborhood but go 2 miles away to shop at a store owned by their friends. Just really obnoxious people and you are sick of them. So your husband rapes the wife and beats the husband up. You and your kids set fire to their house. But that's okay. You are just really sick of them.

None of that makes them fanatics.

I didn't make myself clear. The analogy was that the neighbors were Mormons, you were the Missourians who you said were not fanatics, but just sick of their Mormon neighbors. Even if your neighbors were a fundie polygamist sect would that justify raping and killing them? Burning down their house?

That is what the Missourians did. They got fed up with Mormons, so they raped, killed, burned and ran them out. That was why the Mormons left bloody footprints in the snow. You think they wanted to leave? They were DRIVEN out.

Even that doesn't make them fanatics.

[_beastie]

Yes, she does. I do, too. But I know that while the "principle" is a righteous principle, we don't live it right now, and to do so would be sin. She is only missing half of it.

Maybe it's you who is missing half of it. For all you know, your spiritual experiences would pale beside hers.

There is another source of incredibly strong experiences. And it isn't the right source. That could be happening in some instances.

And how do you feel about EVs who also use that same reasoning to explain YOUR experience?

Look, I am not going to convince you or anyone else by intelligent argument or logic or faillible reason that my sipritual witness is different from the Heaven's Gate people, or is anything other than some type of internal event dependent only on nureal firings and brain chemistry.

I will see you on the other side, and then we can discuss it when we both have all the facts.

You can't convince us OR anyone else because you have nothing but your assertion, which is based on the same thing that Anne's assertion, or the HG's assertion, is based on: God told them something, and they believe it 100%.

This doesn't mean you have to abandon your beliefs: it does mean you should exercise some caution and humility in displaying those beliefs.

Because, for all you know, you may be one of those human beings who is 100% convinced that God told her something, and yet is completely wrong.

[_charity]

You can't convince us OR anyone else because you have nothing but your assertion, which is based on the same thing that Anne's assertion, or the HG's assertion, is based on: God told them something, and they believe it 100%.

This doesn't mean you have to abandon your beliefs: it does mean you should exercise some caution and humility in displaying those beliefs.
Because, for all you know, you may be one of those human beings who is 100% convinced that God told her something, and yet is completely wrong.

Answering the bolded part of your post: Why?

I don't go around bearing my testimony while standing in line at the grocery store. But in a venue where the topic is being discussed, I have no qualms. Why should I exercise caution? So people won't think I'm a kook? Nephi talked about what happens when the people in the great and spacious people who are pointing their fingers and mocking. They don't bother me. Those who hear and are not touched by the Spirit, well, that's the way it goes. There are those who hear and are touched.

[_beastie]

Answering the bolded part of your post: Why?

I don't go around bearing my testimony while standing in line at the grocery store. But in a venue where the topic is being discussed, I have no qualms. Why should I exercise caution? So people won't think I'm a kook? Nephi talked about what happens when the people in the great and spacious people who are pointing their fingers and mocking. They don't bother me. Those who hear and are not touched by the Spirit, well, that's the way it goes. There are those who hear and are touched.

You should exercise caution because you may be one of those who is totally convinced she is right, and yet is wrong.

[_charity]

Answering the bolded part of your post: Why?

I don't go around bearing my testimony while standing in line at the grocery store. But in a venue where the topic is being discussed, I have no qualms. Why should I exercise caution? So people won't think I'm a kook? Nephi talked about what happens when the people in the great and spacious people who are pointing their fingers and mocking. They don't bother me. Those who hear and are not touched by the Spirit, well, that's the way it goes. There are those who hear and are touched.

You should exercise caution because you may be one of those who is totally convinced she is right, and yet is wrong.

And what would be the damage if I was wrong. Anyone who is going to join the Church should do so only after their own study and prayer and spiritual witness, not because of anything I say.

My beliefs have shaped my life. I have been married to the same man for 46 years. I have raised my children in a certain way. I have 6 kids and 15 grandchildren who don't smoke. None of them use drugs. They haven't contracted any STD's, not had an unwanted pregnancy or abortion. None of them have done anything to be sent to jail or prison. None of my kids have to go to church to please me. 1 never goes to church at all. And another one just decided he wanted to start going back to church. More than 10% of my income goes to charitable purposes. I donate hours of my time working in assisted living centers teaching family history writing. I am kind to puppies and kittens. So what was so bad living a Mormon lifestyle and raising children that way?