Homosexuality from a Non-Religious perspective

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_jskains
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Post by _jskains »

asbestosman wrote:
jskains wrote:Certainly there are benefits in obtaining knowledge from nature. We gain insight into how to better attack problems we face. However, the idea that natural is best is likely false. Nature doesn't give a lick about humans. Nature kills most species over time. Those that survive only do so in part because they were better suited. Much of it is still luck.


Absolutely. But that is the problem. You assume nature selects homosexuality. I think it is more likely that homosexuality is when nature fails. Your not going to tell me there is any value in someone who is clinically depressed, are you? Would that person not be better off without the depression? Did nature MAKE them depressed or is depression when nature tripped up?

JMS
_Livingstone22
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Post by _Livingstone22 »

truth dancer wrote:Josh...

Humans ARE nature.

~dancer~[/color]


I'm not sure where this thread is going, or why it is going there. But you are right td, what is "natural" is simply what happens in and of nature--it is what we see happening. And homosexuality happens--with humans and animals. Whether it is a "sin" or not is another thing entirely--as in religions like Mormonism, they believe that people are supposed to put off the "natural man."
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

jskains wrote:Absolutely. But that is the problem. You assume nature selects homosexuality. I think it is more likely that homosexuality is when nature fails. Your not going to tell me there is any value in someone who is clinically depressed, are you? Would that person not be better off without the depression? Did nature MAKE them depressed or is depression when nature tripped up?

I assume no such thing. I only offer speculation I have heard that homosexuality may in fact be selected for in nature. That may or may not be the case.

There may, in fact, be value in depression. It may end up being a benefit to creativity although perhaps only during pauses in between the depression. On the other hand, it could also be that there is no value in depression. Maybe it is an examle of nature tripping up. If so it brings up a more interesting question. If we think that nature trips up with depression, then why should we care what nature intends at all? Perhaps nature killing homosexuals is an example of nature tripping up. It may be that homosexuality provides no benefits to nature, but it can yet provide us benefits just as many humans have a mutation to allow them to drink milk late in life (being lactose intolerant is what nature intended to promote weaning).

Furthermore I think there is a fundamental difference between depression and homosexuality. I imagine that few people wish to remain depressed while I imagine that many homosexuals wish to remain as they are even if many would like to change. Arguably there is nothing inherently miserable about being a homosexual--rather the miserable thing is how people treat them. I think the question of whether someone would be better off without depression or homosexuality is best posed to that person instead of to nature. I would say the same about dwarfism, giantism, synthesia, polydactylism, or other such things which are different from the norm. A woman who is in the middle of childbirth may not care what nature intended her to feel at such times and probably is quite happy to have an epidural (and probably wishes for something even more effective). I think society does the right thing by asking her if she wishes to use it rather than asking nature what should be done. Learning from nature, however, can be beneficial. I think nature provides insight into human problems, not answers.
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_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

jskains wrote:

Could a moderator remove this post please?

Thanks,
JMS


Hey J. Skains, I have not requested that the moderator remove any of your posts.
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_jskains
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Post by _jskains »

asbestosman wrote:Furthermore I think there is a fundamental difference between depression and homosexuality.


The only difference I see would be the end result. Both are malfunctions that cause a behavioral change. The difference is one is a change to a "positive" behavior (sex) and the other is a change to a negative behavior (sadness). Both homosexuality and depression are thought to not only be chemcial changes, but possibly genetic that can be passed. A person with a history of depression has a higher chance of being depressed. I wonder if anyone has tried the same study with homosexuality.

JMS
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

The only difference I see would be the end result. Both are malfunctions that cause a behavioral change. The difference is one is a change to a "positive" behavior (sex) and the other is a change to a negative behavior (sadness). Both homosexuality and depression are thought to not only be chemcial changes, but possibly genetic that can be passed. A person with a history of depression has a higher chance of being depressed. I wonder if anyone has tried the same study with homosexuality.


Josh, did ever occur to you that maybe depression is like hunger... a very natural reaction to a situation, to stimulate change? Or to promote creativity? Or to alert us of a need to expand our abilities, move into a new environment, or otherwise provide us with a reason to grow?

Ever studied evolutionary psychology? ;-)

I truly do not understand why you see homosexuality as a "malfunction." The world is filled with differences. We have different body types, color of hair, interests, talents, abilities.

Personally, I think one of the most fabulous and wonderful things about our world is the way nature creates differences.

;-)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_jskains
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Post by _jskains »

Ever studied evolutionary psychology? ;-)


I appear to have done a lot more research on depression that you have. I don't think any psychologist would ever associate depression with a natural response like hunger. Clinical Depression can be dehabilitating and very hard to reverse. Often there isn't a social trigger that fires it off. Many feel it is a plan and simple chemical imbalance.

I truly do not understand why you see homosexuality as a "malfunction." The world is filled with differences. We have different body types, color of hair, interests, talents, abilities.


While I am using an extreme, there are people attracted to children sexually. Do we embrace that as a difference or classify it as a chemical malfunction of the brain?

JMS
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

jskains wrote:While I am using an extreme, there are people attracted to children sexually. Do we embrace that as a difference or classify it as a chemical malfunction of the brain?

We classify it as immoral to act on because we currently believe that children do not have the capacity to understand and consent to such things. Whether it is a chemical malfunction or not is irrelavent when the behavior it leads to directly harms another human being.

People have all sorts of weird attractions. So long as it is consensual and does not harm others (without informed and capable consent), we probably should not concern ourselves with it. Perhaps we do not embrace it, but we need not combat it either.
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_jskains
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Post by _jskains »

asbestosman wrote:
jskains wrote:While I am using an extreme, there are people attracted to children sexually. Do we embrace that as a difference or classify it as a chemical malfunction of the brain?

We classify it as immoral to act on because we currently believe that children do not have the capacity to understand and consent to such things. Whether it is a chemical malfunction or not is irrelavent when the behavior it leads to directly harms another human being.

People have all sorts of weird attractions. So long as it is consensual and does not harm others (without informed and capable consent), we probably should not concern ourselves with it. Perhaps we do not embrace it, but we need not combat it either.


Ok, so if we allow homosexual marriage, is Polygamy allowable then too?

JMS
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

jskains wrote:Ok, so if we allow homosexual marriage, is Polygamy allowable then too?

Why not so long as no coercion is involved?

Now if we're debating granting special governmental status to it, that is something else. The government doesn't give me special recognition for eating watching the sunset. But if we refuse to give homosexual marriage special status, we must then ask why we do so for heterosexual marriage--even when no children are possible (old people tying the knot). There are some interesting tricky legal issues there and you can find this discussion on MA&D by Confidential Informant.
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