Christmas: a religious holiday?

[_hobart]

I watched "Christmas Unwrapped: the History of Christmas" last night on the History Channel, and (I have also seen other documentaries on the history of Christmas) found much of it quite interesting. I hear a lot people complaining that the have taken the "Christ" out of "Christmas," but has He ever really been a large part of Christmas? Apparently, the seasonal celebration was born out of practices in Pagan Rome when people would acknowledge the birth of the sun god Mitra at the winter's solstice (the point when the sun is the furthest south) and northern European celebrations also of the winter solstice. Scandinavians would entertain traditions of bringing in yule logs to burn as symbols of animals to be born in the coming year; as well they would bring in to the home evergreen trees to symbolize ongoing life in this dark time of year.

Christian Rome, in an attempt to Christianize the masses, dubbed the holiday (as they saw that people wanted to carry on their Pagan traditions) the Feast of the Nativity to celebrate the birth of Christ (a hardly mentioned event in the Gospels, which historians agree probably happened in the Spring anyway)--otherwise known as Christ's Mass, which became Christmas.

The traditions continued throughout the centuries, when in Victorian England, it became a time of partying and reckless behavior. It became sort of a Mardi-Gras type event which Puritans and early Protestants in this country completely prohibited because the holiday was so unChristian. Around the time of 1820 or 30, some things started to happen which re-defined the season and traditions. The Protestant churches were competing with Catholic churches (the former not having Christmas celebrations, the latter still having mass on that day) decided to bring in some of the Catholic practices. At around this same time, the family unit began to fill the role of a loving, emotional support group; before then children were reared with discipline to fulfill the role of hard work. Around the turn of the century, Christmas morphed into a time when it was okay to spoil children. Some of what the older generation now regards as "the way Christmas used to be" is really the way Christmas was to them as children--but it wasn't always that way. The only parts of the season that actually have Christ as part of it is what Catholics have attached: the religious Christmas carols, nativity scenes, and mass on Christmas eve.

I have been listening to the radio a lot recently, and I've heard a great deal of the constitutionality of Nativity scenes on public property to whether it is politically correct to say "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays." Then, on a progressive radio program on XM, this very subject was brought up, and the Pagan host kept saying that Christians stole the idea of their "solstice tree," but as good Pagans, they didn't mind. Christmas is really a largely secular holiday, which some people choose to attach special religious meaning to--and that's okay. 98% of Americans celebrate Christmas in some way or another, but not all of them acknowledge Christ as their savior. So why all the big deal from everyone celebrating Christmas in a country where church and state are practiced? Do nativity scenes have a place in everyone's Christmas celebrations? Does Santa Claus have a place in religious homes? Is Jesus really the "reason for the season"?

Any thoughts? What is the role of Christmas in our society? Is it a religous thing? Or a tradition of our shared Americian culture?

[_dartagnan]

. Christmas is really a largely secular holiday

How the hell do you figure that? Especially considering that the secular progressives are responsible for pressuring companies like Olive Garden and Ciruit City tro refrain from wishing people a Merry Christmas.

I was at Olive Garden last night and a manager was wished a Merry Christmas by a family entering the restaurant. The manager, instead of simply saying "you too," had to be an idiot and make a scene. She explained that she is not allowed to wish them a Merry Christmas because she could lose her job. The family then did an about face and left the restaurant.

Is Christmas religion at its heart? Of course it is!

Sure, there are some weird attachments that have hopped on board along the way, like little elves, Santa Claus, lit up trees and a mutated reindeer, but at its core is the celebration of Christ's birthday. The most popular and beautiful Christmas carols make this absolutely unmistakable. Manger scenes during Christmas are part of American culture and have been for centuries.

Has Christmas become so culturally accepted that even non-Christians get involved? Sure, and why not? Businesses note that Christmas is good for business. It serves them well to know what time of the year they can expect booming sales. But this move to remove Christmas and call everything "Holiday" (i.e. holiday lights, holiday tree. happy holidays, etc) is just idiotic.

[_The Nehor]

Here is the reason for the season:

http://homestarrunner.com/dethemberween.html

[_Who Knows]

But this move to remove Christmas and call everything "Holiday" (I.e. holiday lights, holiday tree. happy holidays, etc) is just idiotic.

Why is it idiotic? If you're not christian, why should you celebrate christmas? I'm not jewish, i don't celebrate hanukah. Or kwanza, or ramadan, etc.

I just wish people a 'happy holiday'.

[_dartagnan]

Why is it idiotic? If you're not christian, why should you celebrate christmas?

Incidentally, the manager is a Christian, but she was forbidden to wish other Christians "Merry Christmas." That is idiotic. Nobody is saying non-Christians must celebrate Christmas.

Why wouldn't you wish a Christian merry Christmas?

I have no problems telling a Muslim to have a happy Ramadan. That doesn't mean I must also celebrate it.

[_moksha]

I have no problems telling a Muslim to have a happy Ramadan. That doesn't mean I must also celebrate it.

This means you are being respectful to the customs of others. If I were at a Jewish wedding, of course I would shout Mazeltov along with everyone else. If I was watching belly dancing I would shout Opa! If I were at the Keene wedding I would have sipped a beer and burped - as Kevin said, it didn't mean that I too had to get married. It never hurts to be polite.

[_Who Knows]

Why is it idiotic? If you're not christian, why should you celebrate christmas?

Incidentally, the manager is a Christian, but she was forbidden to wish other Christians "Merry Christmas." That is idiotic. Nobody is saying non-Christians must celebrate Christmas.

Why wouldn't you wish a Christian merry Christmas?

I have no problems telling a Muslim to have a happy Ramadan. That doesn't mean I must also celebrate it.

Yeah, but the problem is, most of the time, i don't know what religion people are. I'm not gonna go around wishing people merry christmas, without knowing what religion they are. Just as i'm not gonna go around wishing random people a 'happy ramadan'.

At church sure. At work, no. At some random restaurant, no.

As the country gets more and more diverse (religiously speaking), christmas will become less and less of a big deal (nationally speaking - i'm not talking about specifically for christians).

[_dartagnan]

Yeah, but the problem is, most of the time, I don't know what religion people are. I'm not gonna go around wishing people merry christmas, without knowing what religion they are. Just as I'm not gonna go around wishing random people a 'happy ramadan'.

Two things.

1) First, I'm not saying you should necessarily go around and say this to just anyone. I'm saying companies that make it policy that preclude employees from saying it, are being idiotic. 2) When a customer tells you "Merry Christmas" I think it is safe to say you're not going to offend him by saying "Merry Christmas to you too." He may or may not be a Christian, but at the least, you know he is a cultural American or European who celebrates it as "Christmas."

So why not return the favor? Because the secular progressives in this country are destroying American culture from the inside out. Anyone who gets offended by a nativity scene or by me telling my neighbor "Merry Christmas" needs to be deported.

At church sure. At work, no. At some random restaurant, no.

"Merry Christmas" has never been confined to Church, so why should it be now? That's stupid. Should "Happy Birthday" be confined to the party alone? Why doesn't this offend the immediate audience when "Happy Birthday" is being sung at a restaurant? Jehovah's WItnesses get offended at that, but they are not campaigning to have all forms of public celebration removed. Secular progressives have not been able to prove God has nothing to do with Christmas, so they are trying to get rid of Christmas altogether and supplanting it with this innocuous "Holiday" season.

As the country gets more and more diverse (religiously speaking), christmas will become less and less of a big deal (nationally speaking - I'm not talking about specifically for christians).

Adherents of other religions are not the ones protesting Christmas, and this has nothing to do with religious diversity. It has everything to do with the secular progressives and idiot organizations like the ACLU. They are behind this campaign. They use the religious diversity nonsense as an excuse, as if they really care about the feelings of other theists being hurt.

[_Who Knows]

1) First, I'm not saying you should necessarily go around and say this to just anyone. I'm saying companies that make it policy that preclude employees from saying it, are being idiotic.

I don't know. There are laws that prevent religious discrimination in the workplace. Wouldn't such a policy make sense? Especially when there are ways of being more inclusive of everyone, such as simply wishing people a 'happy holiday'?

2) When a customer tells you "Merry Christmas" I think it is safe to say you're not going to offend him by saying "Merry Christmas to you too." He may or may not be a Christian, but at the least, you know he is a cultural American or European who celebrates it as "Christmas."

Well maybe the manager is jewish? Why would a customer walk up to some random person and say 'merry christmas'? Goes back to what I was saying about blurting out merry christmas to people you don't know.

So why not return the favor? Because the secular progressives in this country are destroying American culture from the inside out.

"Destroying" - depends on your perspective, i guess. I would say 'changing' is probably a better word. ('change' can be for good too).

Anyone who gets offended by a nativity scene or by me telling my neighbor "Merry Christmas" needs to be deported.

What country are we in? Iran?

"Merry Christmas" has never been confined to Church, so why should it be now? That's stupid.

I didn't say it should be confined to church. I was simply pointing out that it should be confined to people you know celebrate christmas. At church, you can be sure that everyone there is celebrating it. Outside of church, with people you don't know, you have no idea. So why wish random people a merry christmas, if you don't even know if they celebrate it?

Should "Happy Birthday" be confined to the party alone? Why doesn't this offend the immediate audience when "Happy Birthday" is being sung at a restaurant? Jehovah's WItnesses get offended at that, but they are not campaigning to have all forms of public celebration removed. Secular progressives have not been able to prove God has nothing to do with Christmas, so they are trying to get rid of Christmas altogether and supplanting it with this innocuous "Holiday" season.

Can't please everyone, I guess. If i knew, though, that I worked with a JW, I probably would be more conscious about doing things around them that they might find offensive. I'm not gonna shove something in their face.

Again, why not find something that's more inclusive of EVERYONE? ie., 'happy holidays'.

Adherents of other religions are not the ones protesting Christmas, and this has nothing to do with religious diversity. It has everything to do with the secular progressives and idiot organizations like the ACLU. They are behind this campaign. They use the religious diversity nonsense as an excuse, as if they really care about the feelings of other theists being hurt.

Well, I can't speak for the motives of others. I'm just telling you how I treat it in my life. I work with muslims, jews, Mormons, atheists. As I left work yesterday till Jan. 2nd, wishing people "Happy holidays" on the way out, seemed to be the most inclusive of all of them. (if i were at church, I would probably say 'merry christmas' to everyone.)

[_ludwigm]

...

Yeah, but the problem is, most of the time, I don't know what religion people are. I'm not gonna go around wishing people merry christmas, without knowing what religion they are. Just as I'm not gonna go around wishing random people a 'happy ramadan'. ...

If they have cross in their neck, they are christian.
If they have holy garments, they call themselves christian but others don't call them as such.
If they are circumcised, they are jews or moslem. In this case You must check other things ...