As far as I know, Dehlin remains a believer, albeit either a very liberal one or NOM. I do not believe he is trying to damage the church, but rather views typical apologetics as damaging, and wants to change things by first admitting that some issues are, indeed, "tough". This may end up looking like it's meant to damage the church, but it's not.
I have had some VERY good experiences with a few apologists (John Lynch and Greg Kearny being 2 very important exceptions–these strike me as really sincere, thoughtful, kind-hearted men), and I know that there are others, but overall, I continue to be saddened by how often, when I engage in, or observe an apologist conversation, I end up feeling sick and disappointed. For me, the reasons include:
* The tendency to attack, denigrate and even mock the individual who disagrees with their view of the world. * The tendency towards anger, hatred, sarcasm, and mean-spiritedness. * The general unwillingness to express things like, “That’s a valid concern.” or “Yep…that’s a tough one.” * The apparent willingess to defend at all costs…sometimes with little trace of a desire to remain objective. * The tactic of avoiding the overall “mosaic” of an issue, by delving into obscure details and justifications. * In summation, a lack of credibility in the eyes of many of they honest, open, sincere, thoughtful folk I interact with.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
It seems to me Dehlin was seriously challenged by many things that challenges some of us here, many to the point of abandoning the faith totally. Dehlin seems to have found a way not too do that. I admire what he is doing and think he has guts to do it. He is open, provides many viewpoints both pro and con. He argues from more openness from leadership on sticky issues and so on. Yet he continues to participate in the LDS Church and activity. Maybe because I have had concerned yet still remain I like him and can relate to where he is at. He is not seeking to destroy or defend really. He seems very honest and sincere.
there are just people doing various degrees of their best for humanity and their cause
Dehlin just rubs me the wrong way. He's another lost apologist of a different stripe I suppose. To be so deficit of street smarts to believe the above statement - I believe he is part of the problem.
No. Some people have more evil and ulterior motives than good. Some do not have the best for humanity in mind when their mouth preaches one thing and their body preaches another. Jesus is said to have stated that an evil man cannot give a good gift. Joseph Smith, for instance, was a predatory adulterer. This one violent character flaw destroys his credibility with many that consider a legal marriage vow sacred with God and among men - a covenant that holds the very fabric of civil society together. Surely one cannot be a righteous and God inspired man while actively practicing such depravity.
there are just people doing various degrees of their best for humanity and their cause
Dehlin just rubs me the wrong way. He's another lost apologist of a different stripe I suppose. To be so deficit of street smarts to believe the above statement - I believe he is part of the problem.
No. Some people have more evil and ulterior motives than good. Some do not have the best for humanity in mind when their mouth preaches one thing and their body preaches another. Jesus is said to have stated that an evil man cannot give a good gift. Joseph Smith, for instance, was a predatory adulterer. This one violent character flaw destroys his credibility with many that consider a legal marriage vow sacred with God and among men - a covenant that holds the very fabric of civil society together. Surely one cannot be a righteous and God inspired man while actively practicing such depravity.
I disagree with you that Dehlin is just another lost apologist. He is finding his own way through the morass. Just because he does not choose to reject it all as it seems you have done and is trying to make thing LDS work for him in some way does not make him bad or wrong. in my opinion when you start forcing the issue to the point like you seem to be-one must totally reject and abandon and conclude it is all bad-then yuo enter the realm of the apologist thaty makes an a priori assumption that the Church is totally true and must be defended in any way.
there are just people doing various degrees of their best for humanity and their cause
Dehlin just rubs me the wrong way. He's another lost apologist of a different stripe I suppose. To be so deficit of street smarts to believe the above statement - I believe he is part of the problem.
No. Some people have more evil and ulterior motives than good. Some do not have the best for humanity in mind when their mouth preaches one thing and their body preaches another. Jesus is said to have stated that an evil man cannot give a good gift. Joseph Smith, for instance, was a predatory adulterer. This one violent character flaw destroys his credibility with many that consider a legal marriage vow sacred with God and among men - a covenant that holds the very fabric of civil society together. Surely one cannot be a righteous and God inspired man while actively practicing such depravity.
I disagree with you that Dehlin is just another lost apologist. He is finding his own way through the morass. Just because he does not choose to reject it all as it seems you have done and is trying to make thing LDS work for him in some way does not make him bad or wrong. in my opinion when you start forcing the issue to the point like you seem to be-one must totally reject and abandon and conclude it is all bad-then yuo enter the realm of the apologist thaty makes an a priori assumption that the Church is totally true and must be defended in any way.
Finding his way through the morass - lost. And sometimes he thinks he's on to something. I wish him luck. I'm over in this other bleak area stumbling over fodder. Still...
And no, I don't totally reject all the things Joseph Smith said. Joseph Smith said some things he parroted from others who were not so bad - like Jesus. But things that originated with him or bad people that he called good that are undeniably evil. I've drawn my line right about here.
Finding his way through the morass - lost. And sometimes he thinks he's on to something. I wish him luck. I'm over in this other bleak area stumbling over fodder. Still...
And no, I don't totally reject all the things Joseph Smith said. Joseph Smith said some things he parroted from others who were not so bad - like Jesus. But things that originated with him or bad people that he called good that are undeniably evil. I've drawn my line right about here.
Great if it works for you. Try not to make it work for others though if they have a way that is better for them.
Finding his way through the morass - lost. And sometimes he thinks he's on to something. I wish him luck. I'm over in this other bleak area stumbling over fodder. Still...
And no, I don't totally reject all the things Joseph Smith said. Joseph Smith said some things he parroted from others who were not so bad - like Jesus. But things that originated with him or bad people that he called good that are undeniably evil. I've drawn my line right about here.
Great if it works for you. Try not to make it work for others though if they have a way that is better for them.
I've yet to issue any mandates here, JB. But you have just been a witness to a very strong opinion.
Finding his way through the morass - lost. And sometimes he thinks he's on to something. I wish him luck. I'm over in this other bleak area stumbling over fodder. Still...
And no, I don't totally reject all the things Joseph Smith said. Joseph Smith said some things he parroted from others who were not so bad - like Jesus. But things that originated with him or bad people that he called good that are undeniably evil. I've drawn my line right about here.
Great if it works for you. Try not to make it work for others though if they have a way that is better for them.
I've yet to issue any mandates here, JB. But you have just been a witness to a very strong opinion.
At times your strong opinions are overly harsh about others, such as your comments about Dehlin.
Inconceivable wrote:I've yet to issue any mandates here, JB. But you have just been a witness to a very strong opinion.
At times your strong opinions are overly harsh about others, such as your comments about Dehlin.
I would not consider your strong opinion of me overly harsh. I think you're pretty much dead on.
It's would be good to ask Dehlin who he really thinks his target audience is. He does very strong violence to TBM testimonies and he must know it. Even if he tries to come off as a non-assuming passive do gooder with a "testimony". The GA's must hate this guy.
LOL! If memory serves, wasn't he threatened to be called in for a disciplinary council unless he took his website down, but then they wound up backing off?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"