My Life Was Saved by the Book of Mormon! A Philosophy Problem.

[Guest]

I personally think these kinds of stories (as I've actually heard them) is silly. It's a kind of relic protection. It could just as easily been a kevlar vest, a white handbook, your wallet, or your checkbook. If God chooses to save your life does it really matter which object does it? Remember Marriott's story about being burned up to the garment line? By this definition we are all doing ourselves a tremendous disservice by not wearing the old ankle/wrist garments as it would have prevented those burns.

Yes, it matters which object does it, because if we can't pinpoint an object that does it, then we can't very well say that God did any saving by putting it there. But the overdetermination seems to put our intuitions about the scene into incompatibilities.

I hate to be "marg"ish, yet, could you translate that for me? I'm hoping it's just because it's 1:35 my time that I can relate no sense to what you just typed, Gad. I like that excuse. Let's go with it. :)

~~Edited cause I translated for myself~~

So we're essentially looking at possible multiple causes of the life being saved during the second crazed MDB gunman sniper assualt. Yet, I don't know why it seems difficult to determine really which book saved the life in the second instance. Is that the point? To determine that?

Oh, see, now it's almost 2 am. Off to bed.

Oh, and so I'm not off-topic:

Now mount a Book of Mormon on the stick, would the deflection by the Book of Mormon, given that you were in a tank, or how about a steel enclosure for no apparent reason, constitute a life save and would it make a very good faith promoting story?

It would appear, to me, that if you're in a tank (that would be the Bible in this instance) then the tank (Bible) was what was protecting you essentially. The flimsy piece of wood (the Book of Mormon) was just happenstance. No? Oh, sheesh. I need to go to bed.


~~Edited~~

No, I don't like that either. Cause the first time the Book of Mormon did save his life. Soo.. the second time was the Bible what saved his life? No? Not really, yet it would have if not for the Book of Mormon being there. So the Book of Mormon deflected the bullet away from the Bible. Oh sheesh. I'm going to bed now.

[_Jersey Girl]

Am I insane (don't answer that) or is this the same thing as the Woody Allen anectdote?

Edit: Well, it's kind of like it...

Years ago, my mother gave me a bullet. I put it in my breast pocket. Two years after that I was walking down the street when a berserk evangelist heaved a Gideons Bible out a hotel-room window, hitting me in the chest. The Bible would have gone through my heart if it wasn't for the bullet.
- Woody Allen

Then again, I could be kind of like insane.

;-)

[_Moniker]

Well I feel a bit insane. And certainly hope everyone ignores me. Now this is buggin the hell outta me. And I'm 100% positive I don't even recognize what I'm supposed to be looking for or thinking about here.

But anyway. It appears to me the first instance the Book of Mormon was the tank. It was THE life saving mechanism. It was the protection. Then in the second instance the Bible was the tank and the Book of Mormon was an added layer and became the flimsy piece of wood. And yet... that helps me not... and perhaps, I have no clue what people get excited about in Fast Sunday Services and just need to go off to bed. Now.

Right Now.

[_Moniker]

They don't seem to be buying it. Why not?

I don't know! Arggh.

[_Moniker]

Gad's gonna get mad at me. Cause I think I just wrote the same thing 3 times in a row. Didn't I? Oh gawd. Good night.

[_Gadianton]

No, I won't get mad because going down the same paths over and over again is part of the frustration that goes into solving the problem. And in this case, there is no clear answer to my knowledge. I think Shades was just joking when he said it was simple, but if he wasn't, I'd be pleased to have his answer.

But Moniker, you are going down the right path. It's just that however the system is described will leaving something unsatisfying left over.

by the way, one of this implications of simple problems like these is why even exact sciences like physics would be difficult if not impossible to cast as a formal system, or axiomatically.

[_Moniker]

You are a member of the LDS church and attend a ward in Provo UT primarily populated by highly intelligent physicists, chemists, and logicians who teach at BYU. Every Sunday you attend church wearing a white shirt and tie just as the prophet recommends. Your white shirt has a pocket, and in that pocket you keep a small Book of Mormon. As everyone is truthfully led to believe by the apologists, the Mormons are the most persecuted people on the planet. So it's not surprising then that as you exit the chapel one Sunday afternoon, a cowardly sniper, probably an anti-Mormon who posts anonymously on MDB, shoots you down. You wake up in the hospital sometime later to learn that the bullet had wedged itself into the Book of Mormon you carry in your front pocket, saving your life.

The next Sunday being Fast Sunday, you stand before the congregation and bear testimony that the Book of Mormon saved your life. The congregation as a Mormon sample with an average IQ only rivaled by the self-stated values of apologists on FAIR/MAD listen intently to your description of the sequence of events and seem uncontroversially to accept your account that the Book of Mormon saved your life.

Later that day, a concerned Elder's quorum president advises that you start bringing a Bible as well as a Book of Mormon to Sunday meetings. Knowing that his voice is God's voice for his stewardship, you heed his request, and begin bringing a small Bible to church, craming it behind the Book of Mormon in your front pocket.

On your way out of church a couple Sundays later, again, a sneaky anti-Mormon shoots you down. You wake up in the hospital to find that yet again, the bullet had wedged itself into the Book of Mormon and stopped just before Moroni's promise. So the next fast Sunday, again, you stand before the congregation and bear testimony that the Book of Mormon saved your life. But this time there are hushed whispers, concerned looks, turning heads, and shrugging shoulders. They don't seem to be buying it. Why not?

What changed? What changed their perception of the almost identical same events. Oh sheesh. I gotta tell you, Gad, I'm really tired of reconstructing stories and never having satisfactory answers. It's rather tiresome, really. This entire question creeps me out for a few reasons -- anyway.

So... you know that the Book of Mormon saved your life. You profess this to others and they seem to accept this. Then you are once again attacked and only one slight thing has changed -- why is the original ability to accept that the Book of Mormon saved your life not happening the second time around.

What really changed? The Bible was inserted... an extra layer of protection was added, which incidentally replaced the first layer. Yet, why does that matter? The targets perception doesn't change... merely those that are witness to his testimony. They know there's something different and do not believe the Book of Mormon is responsible.... hmmm...

I'm just wandering all over the place. Did asbestosman already figure it out? I'm guessing he did.

[_Moniker]

Faith promoting story? Oh, my mind is really wandering now. I need to stop.

[_Moniker]

Someone can stop me, at any time. :)

Does it matter that they believe they're persecuted? It would appear to me, that would be important. That is why the faith promoting story comes in with the Book of Mormon saving them from nasty anti-Mos. So they readily accepted it. Probably gobbled up that story and were excited that the garments didn't get scuffed up in the process. Sooo... it happened again... someone told this man he needed to do something... and he did it. After he did this the exact same thing happened -- they still believe they're persecuted, no doubt.... so what changed? So, are they discounting that the Book of Mormon saved his life.... or are they discounting the man's description of events? Why? Because they're idiots?

~~edited cause that's not very nice~~

I fear, that I have just swerved so far off the path that I'm in the brambles.

Okay... so they're not "idiots". Yet... they NEED the Book of Mormon to be the life saving mechanism. This is necessary for it to be faith promoting. They're persecuted, this young man is persecuted and the Book of Mormon is a marvelous thing indeed. Sooo... the only thing that changed was the Book of Mormon being placed in front of the Bible. Why can't they accept it? The man followed directions. Oh sheesh.

[_Gadianton]

[quote = "mon"]What really changed? The Bible was inserted... an extra layer of protection was added, which incidentally replaced the first layer. Yet, why does that matter? The targets perception doesn't change... merely those that are witness to his testimony. They know there's something different and do not believe the Book of Mormon is responsible.... hmmm... [/quote]

Well, there is one little thing I had reservations on, to create the drama in the story, I took one little liberty. To be entirely consistent, the audience after gasping in the second case, should reconsider their position in the first case.

I'm going to PM you something.

I'm just wandering all over the place. Did asbestosman already figure it out? I'm guessing he did.

One of the things that makes truly philosophical problems hard is that there is no clear, cut and dry answer. I've seen a couple proposed answers, and I don't agree with them. I don't have an answer for it but I think I appreciate what appears to be a tradeoff in the various ways to look at the problem. But I could also be wrong. I don't know of any super-detailed analysis of this problem in particular.