Charity's view of how a prophet receives revelation

[_harmony]

Speak for yourself. I don't lie.

You just did.

What do you suppose is meant in 2 Ne. 4: 34? "O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm."

Sounds like Joseph was on a roll.

[_Gazelam]

Men lie. It's their nature.

So how are things at home?

[_Roger Morrison]

Seems as if that's the process--"don't tell until asked"--that all great enquiring minds work through... The Wright Bros, Eli Whitney, Madam Currie, Jonas Salk et al... Ask--seek--knock then, find-the-answer!

Course ya gotta have an enquiring mind. THEN work REALLY hard to interpret the revelation to be inspired to bring to pass the righteousness, so-to-speak, to get the thing off the ground, the little wheels turning, the milk at the right temperature, and the vacine produced and administered. Much retro-fitting, modifications and a whole bunch of trial-&-error stuff before, "Praise the Lord!!"

Could be why the believers & faithers in science have more successes than those other guys who believe in a magic "God", no hard-work and "Praise the Lord" for nothing but hearing voices that don't materialize anything.

It's all semantics. Change the vocabulary. Put energy where it is purposeful and join hands with the real "God" of creation!! Charity is just one of millions of well intended, educated by indoctrinational methods to promolgate Religious Tyranny and its Naked King. For her, in an LDS uniform. Many styles. Some mor colourful but all serving to perpetuate a Theological Mythicism to satisfy different psyche-needs. Take yer pick! Follow your own revelatory voices. Enjoy your choice and let the other guy/gal enjoy theirs. Warm regards, Roger

[_JAK]

Seems as if that's the process--"don't tell until asked"--that all great enquiring minds work through... The Wright Bros, Eli Whitney, Madam Currie, Jonas Salk et al... Ask--seek--knock then, find-the-answer!

Course ya gotta have an enquiring mind. THEN work REALLY hard to interpret the revelation to be inspired to bring to pass the righteousness, so-to-speak, to get the thing off the ground, the little wheels turning, the milk at the right temperature, and the vacine produced and administered. Much retro-fitting, modifications and a whole bunch of trial-&-error stuff before, "Praise the Lord!!"

Could be why the believers & faithers in science have more successes than those other guys who believe in a magic "God", no hard-work and "Praise the Lord" for nothing but hearing voices that don't materialize anything.

It's all semantics. Change the vocabulary. Put energy where it is purposeful and join hands with the real "God" of creation!! Charity is just one of millions of well intended, educated by indoctrinational methods to promolgate Religious Tyranny and its Naked King. For her, in an LDS uniform. Many styles. Some mor colourful but all serving to perpetuate a Theological Mythicism to satisfy different psyche-needs. Take yer pick! Follow your own revelatory voices. Enjoy your choice and let the other guy/gal enjoy theirs. Warm regards, Roger

Well state Roger!

Because science begins with fact-finding, science has success.

Those who begin with the conclusion first, then try to fit facts around the conclusion are certain to fail in reliable conclusion.

Those you mention in your first paragraph are a number of people who clearly began by close examination of available information and proceeded from that to additional information and conclusions which they tested.

“Praise the Lord” mentality enjoys no such intellectual inquiry as those you mentioned at the top.

You observed it, and I observed it in a post: Charity is so well indoctrinated that she has no clue that she has been indoctrinated.

The most effective brainwashing is that which is done without the knowledge or consent of the person who is the victim.

JAK

[_Sethbag]

Well, she's participated in the indoctrination of her own self, as we all did, at least those of us who were TBMs at one time.

Charity's worldview now contains some axioms and values which are assumed true by her, unconsciously even, and judging by them what she says makes total sense. It's like one of us judging that if someone drops something, it'll fall.

Imagine how odd that might seem to someone from a universe where gravity didn't exist. We'd predict that someone would drop something and it would fall, and they'd shake their head in disbelief and say "what, you mean you think it'll just start moving off in that direction just because someone let go of it? that's absurd!"

In Charity's virtual reality, it all makes the most perfect sense. And when DCP or Hamblin or any of the others make some apologetic argument, it all rings true to her, because her values and axioms, and the apologetic arguments, all stem from the same source, and so are in harmony with each other.

[_charity]

Well, she's participated in the indoctrination of her own self, as we all did, at least those of us who were TBMs at one time.

Charity's worldview now contains some axioms and values which are assumed true by her, unconsciously even, and judging by them what she says makes total sense. It's like one of us judging that if someone drops something, it'll fall.

Imagine how odd that might seem to someone from a universe where gravity didn't exist. We'd predict that someone would drop something and it would fall, and they'd shake their head in disbelief and say "what, you mean you think it'll just start moving off in that direction just because someone let go of it? that's absurd!"

In Charity's virtual reality, it all makes the most perfect sense. And when DCP or Hamblin or any of the others make some apologetic argument, it all rings true to her, because her values and axioms, and the apologetic arguments, all stem from the same source, and so are in harmony with each other.

Your nice little analysis there only works if I am wrong. IF. I am happy as I am. If I am wrong, then I have lost nothing. If you are happy the way you are, then good for you. But if you are worng? Think about it.

[_Roger Morrison]

Seems as if that's the process--"don't tell until asked"--that all great enquiring minds work through... The Wright Bros, Eli Whitney, Madam Currie, Jonas Salk et al... Ask--seek--knock then, find-the-answer!

Course ya gotta have an enquiring mind. THEN work REALLY hard to interpret the revelation to be inspired to bring to pass the righteousness, so-to-speak, to get the thing off the ground, the little wheels turning, the milk at the right temperature, and the vacine produced and administered. Much retro-fitting, modifications and a whole bunch of trial-&-error stuff before, "Praise the Lord!!"

Could be why the believers & faithers in science have more successes than those other guys who believe in a magic "God", no hard-work and "Praise the Lord" for nothing but hearing voices that don't materialize anything.

It's all semantics. Change the vocabulary. Put energy where it is purposeful and join hands with the real "God" of creation!! Charity is just one of millions of well intended, educated by indoctrinational methods to promolgate Religious Tyranny and its Naked King. For her, in an LDS uniform. Many styles. Some mor colourful but all serving to perpetuate a Theological Mythicism to satisfy different psyche-needs. Take yer pick! Follow your own revelatory voices. Enjoy your choice and let the other guy/gal enjoy theirs. Warm regards, Roger

Charity said: "... I am happy as I am. If I am wrong, then I have lost nothing. If you are happy the way you are, then good for you. But if you are worng? Think about it."

With all due respect Sis, "think about it." IF/since you can be wrong & happy, why not Seth, or anyone else? As I indicated in the bold of my above post. Which it appears, is exactly what You are stating. The courteous, civil thing. Congrats! One of those situations where "Ignorance is bliss."

Epilogue: There are many church-goers with enquiring minds who enjoy their membership, and contribute to society. Unfortunately there are VERY few, church-leaders--Ecclesiasts/Theologians--with enquiring minds. Hence we have a "membership" hobbled by the religious institutional heads. (Spong is an exception :-)

In most part they are like the slow driving guy/gal at the front of a line of traffic on a curved road. They seldom look back to see the vehicles pilling up behind them, and the problems they are causing. Blissfully they set the pace, ignorant of the fact that they are a hazard. Such is the case when knowledge is hampered by indifference, superstition and fear.

Ever thus: too few thinkers, too many followers of followers of followers>>> Yes Charity, "think about it." Where are the creative thinkers, and enquiring minds influencing religious thought? Certainly not within LDSism. Warm regards, Roger

[_truth dancer]

Hi Roger...

Ohhh your words are wise. (As always)!

My personal feeling is that we NEED those who are willing to take the hero's journey!

The stories and myths of the ancient days in many ways do not address the needs of our time. I have a sense this is why so many are lost.

Rigidly holding onto the past, while it is obviously safe and comfortable and easy, may not be in the best interest of humankind moving into this new environment in which we find ourselves.

~dancer~

[_Sethbag]

Well, she's participated in the indoctrination of her own self, as we all did, at least those of us who were TBMs at one time.

Charity's worldview now contains some axioms and values which are assumed true by her, unconsciously even, and judging by them what she says makes total sense. It's like one of us judging that if someone drops something, it'll fall.

Imagine how odd that might seem to someone from a universe where gravity didn't exist. We'd predict that someone would drop something and it would fall, and they'd shake their head in disbelief and say "what, you mean you think it'll just start moving off in that direction just because someone let go of it? that's absurd!"

In Charity's virtual reality, it all makes the most perfect sense. And when DCP or Hamblin or any of the others make some apologetic argument, it all rings true to her, because her values and axioms, and the apologetic arguments, all stem from the same source, and so are in harmony with each other.

Your nice little analysis there only works if I am wrong. IF. I am happy as I am. If I am wrong, then I have lost nothing. If you are happy the way you are, then good for you. But if you are worng? Think about it.

If I'm wrong, then I have to hope and believe that God isn't as much of an asshole as the Mormon theology predicts after all, and that he appreciates the fact that I used the noggin he gave me as honestly and with as much integrity as I knew how, to evaluate reality, its evidence, the world we live in, the "big picture" view of humanity and our collective history with false religions, our susceptibility to fooling ourselves with false beliefs, etc. and acted accordingly. As the quote Beastie likes to post from time to time says, he gave me a brain and an intellect and I took that seriously and used them.

My only hope for you, Charity, is that you come to understand what it means that other people have worldviews where the things you take for granted aren't, and where things look a heck of a lot different than they do to you. We say Joseph Smith looks like a lying, philandering con artist (even a pious one, if Dan Vogel is correct, and I suspect he is), because Joseph Smith, when taken seriously on the evidence, from outside of the convinced LDS worldview, looks like a lying, philandering con artist, and that image fits right in with other lying, philandering con artists that we've seen aside from Joseph Smith down through time, so that we recognize that this judgment is entirely reasonable, fits in with the "big picture", and so forth.

I understand why you think the things you think, and I hope you can come to understand why people like us think the things we think.

[_guy sajer]

Well, she's participated in the indoctrination of her own self, as we all did, at least those of us who were TBMs at one time.

Charity's worldview now contains some axioms and values which are assumed true by her, unconsciously even, and judging by them what she says makes total sense. It's like one of us judging that if someone drops something, it'll fall.

Imagine how odd that might seem to someone from a universe where gravity didn't exist. We'd predict that someone would drop something and it would fall, and they'd shake their head in disbelief and say "what, you mean you think it'll just start moving off in that direction just because someone let go of it? that's absurd!"

In Charity's virtual reality, it all makes the most perfect sense. And when DCP or Hamblin or any of the others make some apologetic argument, it all rings true to her, because her values and axioms, and the apologetic arguments, all stem from the same source, and so are in harmony with each other.

Your nice little analysis there only works if I am wrong. IF. I am happy as I am. If I am wrong, then I have lost nothing. If you are happy the way you are, then good for you. But if you are worng? Think about it.

Yes, Charity, if you're wrong and the EVs are correct, you can look forward to an eternity of roasting and basting. Wouldn't it be wiser to hedge your bet so that if you are wrong, then the cost isn't quite so high?

I mean, if you convert to EV, and you're wrong, God'll give you a nice, reasonably confy mansion in the terrestial kingdom. Not so bad. Beats the hell out of roasting and basting.

So, here's the tradeoff:

Stay Mormon and right: Eternal pregnancy along with multiple sister wives within a harem of celestial sisters and ruled over by some Celestial rutting stud
Stay Mormon and wrong: Eternal roasting and basting

Convert to EV and right: Eternity spent in singing praise and obsequiece ass-kissing fawning over loving God (but one with a nasty streak who enjoys obsequice ass-kissing fawning and who enjoys now and then comdenming otherwise decent people to an eternity of roasting and basting)
Convert to EV and wrong: Comfy mansion in the terrestial kingdom. Not eternally pregnant, not part of a harem ruled over by some Celestial rutting stud

Think about it.