Another reason to ask about the Closed Books...

[_beastie]

This is such a bogus argument. You are talking about people who buy their kids iPods and cell phones, and wardrobes that run into the hundreds of dollars. Who live in houses with multiple bathrooms, and think they are really poverty stricken if both their cars are more than 5 years old! Any expressed concern for "the poor" is crocodile tears.

Yes, Charity, we all know there are no truly poor in America, much less in the Mormon church.

You live a very insulated life.

This is what happens when a person comes back to full activity. They don't have to make up back tithing. In essence, it is "forgiven." Now, if they come into the bishop's office and tell him they want to go to the teple next week when their kid gets married, and oh, yes, here is my tithing for this week, that won't really wash. There has to be a demonstration of sincerity. I don't have the mantle of a bishop, nor his discernment, but from my less than perfect point of view a person who decides to pay tithing because he wants to go to the temple for a special occasion would not pass the sniff test.

The blanket forgiveness was immediate, and applied to everyone who had gotten behind in tithing. In other words, he didn't demand a time period to demonstrate sincerity. No, it's not the same thing as an inactive returning to activity.

[_Abinadi's Fire]

This is such a bogus argument. You are talking about people who buy their kids iPods and cell phones, and wardrobes that run into the hundreds of dollars. Who live in houses with multiple bathrooms, and think they are really poverty stricken if both their cars are more than 5 years old! Any expressed concern for "the poor" is crocodile tears.

Spoken like someone who has never lived in South Phoenix.

On another level, do you think being poor is limited to the temporal?

[_beastie]

It was actually John Taylor who spear-headed the Jubilee forgiveness of tithing debts:

http://www.LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... CRD&locale
=0&sourceId=84e0ba9ff599b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

Next President Taylor moved that half of the debt of $151,798.02 in unpaid tithing be remitted in favor of the deserving poor. “Those who were better off should pay up,” he said. Further, to help the poor who had suffered during the past winter, it was proposed that 1,000 cows, 5,000 sheep, and 34,761 bushels of wheat stored by the Relief Society should be donated, the wheat to be paid back after the next harvest.

[_charity]

I've always wondered how a church that says "family first" can take 10% of the poor's money, especially when it's so rich.

This is such a bogus argument. You are talking about people who buy their kids iPods and cell phones, and wardrobes that run into the hundreds of dollars. Who live in houses with multiple bathrooms, and think they are really poverty stricken if both their cars are more than 5 years old! Any expressed concern for "the poor" is crocodile tears.

Wow, charity. 'way to demonstrate you understanding and compassion. Is that your definition of "poor"? You need to get out more. Come to my neighborhood and visit. Come to the school where my daughter teaches. Come to the reservation where I work. Then you'll know "poor" the next time someone says the word.

I've been there, charity. And I know exactly how hard it is to give 10% of my meager income away to the richest institution in my life. Don't patronize me with your notions of middle class poverty. I've lived the real thing.

So have I. We supported a family of six children on a teacher's income. We always qualified for "reduced price" meals at the schools, but we couldn't even afford that. I made our kids lunches to take from home to save even a few pennies there. We shopped at thrift stores and never had a car less than 10 years old. And for the years I was a stay at home mom, we had one car. We never lived in nice suburban homes with multiple bathrooms. All 8 of us made do with one bathroom and the scheduling problems that caused trying to get everyone ready to go at the same time. We never took the kids to Disneyland or any other fancy vacation. Once a month we went out for a big night to have a hamburger, milkshake and french fries at the McD. The kids had whatever sports and music activities were given through the schools. No tennis lessons or gym club memberships. We were below poverty level every year we had all six kids at home. So don't try to patronize me, either.

No one ever starves or goes homeless for paying tithing.

[_harmony]

It was actually John Taylor who spear-headed the Jubilee forgiveness of tithing debts:

http://www.LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... CRD&locale
=0&sourceId=84e0ba9ff599b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

Next President Taylor moved that half of the debt of $151,798.02 in unpaid tithing be remitted in favor of the deserving poor. “Those who were better off should pay up,” he said. Further, to help the poor who had suffered during the past winter, it was proposed that 1,000 cows, 5,000 sheep, and 34,761 bushels of wheat stored by the Relief Society should be donated, the wheat to be paid back after the next harvest.

How the heck did John Taylor know the exact amount of tithing that was outstanding? And if the church had 1000 cows, etc being held back while people were suffering in the winter... why didn't they open the storehouse sooner?

Holy Moses! What a joke!

[_Jason Bourne]

I've always wondered how a church that says "family first" can take 10% of the poor's money, especially when it's so rich.

This is such a bogus argument. You are talking about people who buy their kids iPods and cell phones, and wardrobes that run into the hundreds of dollars. Who live in houses with multiple bathrooms, and think they are really poverty stricken if both their cars are more than 5 years old! Any expressed concern for "the poor" is crocodile tears.

This is not so for all. There are many poor and struggling families in the Church. More then half are outside of the US and Canada many in poor countries where they live hand to mouth. The Church is not made entirely of middle and upper middle class North Americans.

[_charity]

This is such a bogus argument. You are talking about people who buy their kids iPods and cell phones, and wardrobes that run into the hundreds of dollars. Who live in houses with multiple bathrooms, and think they are really poverty stricken if both their cars are more than 5 years old! Any expressed concern for "the poor" is crocodile tears.

This is not so for all. There are many poor and struggling families in the Church. More then half are outside of the US and Canada many in poor countries where they live hand to mouth. The Church is not made entirely of middle and upper middle class North Americans.

I understand that. From returned senior missionaries, it is my impression that the poorest Saints are more faithful with their "widow's mites" than the more affluent among us.

[_Jason Bourne]

Wow, charity. 'way to demonstrate you understanding and compassion. Is that your definition of "poor"? You need to get out more. Come to my neighborhood and visit. Come to the school where my daughter teaches. Come to the reservation where I work. Then you'll know "poor" the next time someone says the word.

I've been there, charity. And I know exactly how hard it is to give 10% of my meager income away to the richest institution in my life. Don't patronize me with your notions of middle class poverty. I've lived the real thing.

The LDS Church is not the richest institution in your life. The US government is and I bet you give them more then 10%/

[_Jason Bourne]

This is such a bogus argument. You are talking about people who buy their kids iPods and cell phones, and wardrobes that run into the hundreds of dollars. Who live in houses with multiple bathrooms, and think they are really poverty stricken if both their cars are more than 5 years old! Any expressed concern for "the poor" is crocodile tears.

This is not so for all. There are many poor and struggling families in the Church. More then half are outside of the US and Canada many in poor countries where they live hand to mouth. The Church is not made entirely of middle and upper middle class North Americans.

I understand that. From returned senior missionaries, it is my impression that the poorest Saints are more faithful with their "widow's mites" than the more affluent among us.

That is not my experience. Some who are poorer tithe and some don't. Same of middle class and wealthy saints. And I have witnessed extremely high generosity among the more affluent as well. I would agree with most people tither because the believe in it, believe God wants them too and they do it quite willingly. Whether or not tithing would drop if members could see the books and they revealed the wealth of the Church I do not know. Some perhaps but I Think it would be limited.

[_harmony]

The LDS Church is not the richest institution in your life. The US government is and I bet you give them more then 10%/

Actually, Jason, for the years when the church was the richest institution in my life, I paid no taxes. And that was for years and years. It's only in the last 10 years that I've had to pay taxes (and what a bite it is!). For the 20 years before that, we never made enough money for them to keep what little was withheld. We always got it all back.

So, yes... the LDS church was indeed the richest institution in my life at that time.