The unbelieving Fifth Column

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_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

charity wrote:
harmony wrote:
charity wrote:Homosexuality is an abomination because God has said so. I believe that. Happy now?"


God also said polygamy was an abomination, if one believes the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

Try to remember that what is written in books is not written by God, but by men. And men always have their own agenda.


Try to remember to read ALL the scriptures, not just those you think supports your opinion.

Jacob 2: 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Clearly, if the Lord has a reason to authorize plural marriage that's fine, OTHERWISE, they will be mongamous.

I think you will probably disagree with that, but then what is your explanation of the word OTHERWISE?


No matter how you spin it, charity, God calls plural marriage an ABOMINATION in the Book of Mormon, and he never rescinded that nomenclature. It is an abomination, no matter when or how it's practiced, or what spin is put on it.
_charity
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Post by _charity »

harmony wrote:
charity wrote:
Try to remember to read ALL the scriptures, not just those you think supports your opinion.

Jacob 2: 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Clearly, if the Lord has a reason to authorize plural marriage that's fine, OTHERWISE, they will be mongamous.

I think you will probably disagree with that, but then what is your explanation of the word OTHERWISE?


No matter how you spin it, charity, God calls plural marriage an ABOMINATION in the Book of Mormon, and he never rescinded that nomenclature. It is an abomination, no matter when or how it's practiced, or what spin is put on it.


I thought you couldn't explain "otherwise." You silence on the point is deafening.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

charity wrote:
harmony wrote:
charity wrote:
Try to remember to read ALL the scriptures, not just those you think supports your opinion.

Jacob 2: 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Clearly, if the Lord has a reason to authorize plural marriage that's fine, OTHERWISE, they will be mongamous.

I think you will probably disagree with that, but then what is your explanation of the word OTHERWISE?


No matter how you spin it, charity, God calls plural marriage an ABOMINATION in the Book of Mormon, and he never rescinded that nomenclature. It is an abomination, no matter when or how it's practiced, or what spin is put on it.


I thought you couldn't explain "otherwise." You silence on the point is deafening.


That's because "otherwise" isn't what I see as important. What's important is "abomination". I don't care about "otherwise"; I care about "abomination". YMMV.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I don't believe it's a thesaurus. Rather, I believe it is his go-to Internet source, frontpagemag.org (or whatever it's called; it's easy enough to find, since it is pretty much the only thing he ever uses when given a 'CFR').



Interesting isn't it. When I use the knowledge that's in my head, from an adult lifetime of study, reading, and observation, I'm asked for sources regarding everything I say. When I use sources, I'm called an "ignorant right winger with a thesaurus".

Amazing what happens when you do intellectually flummox people who don't have the fund of knowledge and haven't done the studying and reading and haven't pursued, over the long term, the knowledge, wt both breadth and depth, that would allow them to feel comfortable debating without casting personal smears against one's intelligence.

With Scratch, its just the old fable of the sour grapes. He wishes he was well read, educated, and knowledgeable, but he isn't, and he doesn't have the temperament to become so. For someone who has flat footedly lied publically about having degrees he doesn't have, and who remains anonymous to this very moment, he's got chutzpah.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Brackite wrote:
Hi There Charity,

Here is Part of my Exegesis of Jacob Chapter Two and Jacob Chapter Three, particularly Jacob 2:30, from the Zion Lighthouse Message Board:

Part II:

Here is the Scriptural Passage of Jacob 2:30:


Quote:
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30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
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The Lord God intends to command His People in order to raise up seed unto Him. This is really meaning raising up seed unto the Lord. The phrase 'raise up seed unto the Lord,' is used also in 1 Nephi 7:1. Here is 1 Nephi 7:1:



Quote:
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1 And now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.
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Now let’s compare this Scriptural Passage with 1 Nephi 16:7-8. Here is 1 Nephi 16:7-8:


Quote:
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7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.

8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the ccmmandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Now let's go back to Jacob 2:30. Here is Jacob 2:30:


Quote:
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30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Please notice that Nephi, his brethren and Zoram took just one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife. Please also notice that the word ‘command’ in Jacob 2:30 corresponds with the word 'commandments' in 1 Nephi 16:8.
And Please also notice that the phrase 'raise us seed unto the Lord' does Not mean that the Lord God wants to raise up a more numerous seed. The phrase, 'raise up seed unto the Lord' in the Book of Mormon means that the Lord God wants to raise up a righteous seed; righteous children, righteous sons and daughters, unto the Lord God. Lets go through another Scriptural Passage again in the Book of Mormon to more effectively demonstrate my Point here. In Mosiah 15:10-13, the Lord God through the Book of Mormon Prophet Abinadi defines who is the seed of the Lord God. Here is Mosiah 15:10-13:


Quote:
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Mosiah 15:10-13:
10
And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?
11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord -- I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are heirs of the kingdom of God.
12
For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?
13 Yea, and are not the prophets, every one that has opened his mouth to prophesy, that has not fallen into transgression, I mean all the holy prophets ever since the world began? I say unto you that they are his seed. (Bold Emphasis Mine.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Now Here is the Special Link to my Whole Exegesis and Commentary on Jacob Chapter Two and Jacob Chapter Three, particularly Jacob 2:30, on the Zion Lighthouse Message Board:

http://p094.ezboard.com/Reading-Jacob-C ... =415.topic



I read your post. I agree with nevo. You have not effectively engaged on the "otherwise" issue, in my opinion.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Coggins7 wrote:Amazing what happens when you do intellectually flummox people who don't have the fund of knowledge and haven't done the studying and reading and haven't pursued, over the long term, the knowledge, wt both breadth and depth, that would allow them to feel comfortable debating without casting personal smears against one's intelligence.


When that happens, we'll be sure to tell you. Until then, "intellectually flummox[ed]" isn't exactly accurate.

With Scratch, its just the old fable of the sour grapes. He wishes he was well read, educated, and knowledgeable, but he isn't, and he doesn't have the temperament to become so. For someone who has flat footedly lied publically about having degrees he doesn't have, and who remains anonymous to this very moment, he's got chutzpah.


Blah... blah.... blah... same ol', same ol'. Same manure, different day.
_charity
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Post by _charity »

harmony wrote:
No matter how you spin it, charity, God calls plural marriage an ABOMINATION in the Book of Mormon, and he never rescinded that nomenclature. It is an abomination, no matter when or how it's practiced, or what spin is put on it.


I thought you couldn't explain "otherwise." You silence on the point is deafening.[/quote]
harmony wrote:That's because "otherwise" isn't what I see as important. What's important is "abomination". I don't care about "otherwise"; I care about "abomination". YMMV.


He says that polygamy is an abomination UNLESS he authorizes it. And it is really nice to be able to just ignore parts of the scriptures that you do not want to deal with.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

harmony wrote:
charity wrote:
Try to remember to read ALL the scriptures, not just those you think supports your opinion.

Jacob 2: 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Clearly, if the Lord has a reason to authorize plural marriage that's fine, OTHERWISE, they will be mongamous.

I think you will probably disagree with that, but then what is your explanation of the word OTHERWISE?


"Otherwise" is easily explained. Joseph Smith was pretty much making things up as he went along. As soon as he said (through his hat) that it was an abomination, he had a second thought -- I might like to try that myself one of these days -- so he added the "otherwise."
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

You avoided the issue, Loran. Again. The Book of Mormon sounded denounces plural marriage. Calls it an abomination.


The Book of Mormon does no such thing. The very fact that you don't care if you make a fool of yourself in public, and don't care that your severe ignorance of your own scriptures makes you appear like a poseur who is not even a member of the Church (and if it wasn't for Jason setting me straight on that, I'd still not believe you had ever been a member, your comment above being a prime example of my point).

Here's what Jacob actually says. You could have looked this up for yourself and saved me the effort of having to make you look like a smug tendentious demagogue.

For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.


David may have taken some wives that were not approved of by the Lord. What we do know is that, in the verses I provided, the Lord through his prophet did, indeed, allow David plural wives, even the wives of a conquered enemy. The exact nature of this situation I do not know. He allowed Moses, Abraham, Issac, and Jacob plural wives as well. The only scriptural record in the Old Testament we have of an improper course of action for David sexually was Bathsheba, which was adultery, not approved plural marriage. Were there some other wives that may have been improperly incorporated into David's household? The Book of Mormon seems to imply such. This is a peripheral point, however, because the verse you conveniently refrained from mentioning sets the Lord's law regarding the matter for his people.

In Jacob 2:30, Monogamy is the rule, but there is an exception, and that exception is plural marriage, a principle the Lord retains the right to command and authorize a people to practice. Outside of that command, it is not to be practiced. Within his command and authorization, it is a righteous practice, as the Old Testament testifies. If the Lord wishes to "raise up seed", then, he says, he will command his people. If not, his people cannot take it upon themselves to initiate this principle. They are to have one wife only.

Now, your default fall back position will be to claim that those verses in the Old Testament that legitimize or condone plural marriage are of men, not of God. Your other fall back position is now going to have to be to claim that Jacob 2:24-28 are the words of the Lord, while, two verses later, the text of Jacob 2:30, is a human interpolation. This is nice work if you can get it, wandering through the scriptures deciding, purely upon personal subjective criteria, what you will accept and what you reject.

believe it or not Harmony, it really isn't all that fun to see you dance like a spider on a hot frying pan this way. I wish you'd find yourself a coherent position and theory regarding this issue, and others, and stick to them.

You're playing of the scriptures off against themselves, and your extreme subjectivist approach to everything is wearying.



There's no getting around that, no matter how any subsequent verses are interpreted. Plural marriage is condemned as an abomination. Are you saying the Book of Mormon isn't the word of God? And have you forgotten that the Bible is held as God's word with a caveat? A caveat not extended to the Book of Mormon?

Good grief, Loran. You're the poser, better than anyone else on this board ever could be.


Start reading the scriptures for yourself, and thinking about them, before you post here any further.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Let's filter Coggins's post through the B.S. Filter and see what it really says:

Coggins7 wrote:Interesting isn't it. When I use the knowledge that's in my head, from an adult lifetime of studying frontpagemag.com, reading frontpagemag.com, and observation of frontpagemag.com, I'm asked for sources regarding everything I say, and am forced to rely upon the only thing I read, namely: frontpagemag.com. When I use frontpagemag.com, I'm called an "ignorant right winger with a thesaurus".

Amazing what happens when you do intellectually flummox people who don't have the fund of knowledge that comes from frontpagemag.com, and haven't done the studying and reading of frontpagemag.com, and haven't pursued, over the long term, the knowledge, wt both breadth and depth, of frontpagemag.com, that would allow them to feel comfortable debating without casting personal smears against one's intelligence.
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