Is the Internet Confounding the Revision of History

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_hopeofzion
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Reply to GoodK

Post by _hopeofzion »

Why would you believe they are led by the Lord, yet not the Mormon Lord?

I have no idea what you mean by "Mormon Lord" ...please elaborate. I am aware of only one God.

Don't have Book of Mormon in front of me, but does the Bible speak of pyramids or lost tribes being led to south america?
I don't think any pyramid has ever migrated anywhere that I am aware of. That was a joke. ;-) However, in regards to the Bible testifying to the movement of the lost tribes, I would love to speak to, however, only with someone who is sincere in wanting to know. Since the opening statement of your post seems to indicate you don't even hold the Bible to be true, what would be the value in me showing you what the Bible has to say about this topic? If I have misunderstood your stance, please correct me.
Is this an example of confirmation bias?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but if you are speaking of the natural inclination for people to find what they are looking for, seeing signs and finding witnesses to what they desire to be true, this is a topic I am an expert in. Because I, and others I have known, have fallen into this trap in the past. It is something I try to constantly keep an eye on. In fact, I wrote a book about it called "That You May Not Be Deceived."

As I stated however, I was not looking for a confirmation. I was satisfied with the fruit that the Book of Mormon brought into my life, and the life of others around me. I was satisfied with my testimony, and did not need to have it proven scientifically. It was sufficient that it brought joy in my life.

When Wayne May presented the mountains of evidence that he did, which wasn't convoluted and somewhat stretched like much of the so-called evidences I had seen in times past, it was an amazingly delightful experience. But it was not necessary for me to have.

I went to the presentation, not looking for evidence to support my belief in the Book of Mormon, but because I had heard that he was going to present evidence that it took place in North America, and not Central America, and I was intrigued....seeing that the predominant belief among LDS, RLDS and Restoration people of all kinds seemed to be that it had occurred in Central America. I hope this clarifies things a bit.
_hopeofzion
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smiles

Post by _hopeofzion »

Much love back at ya, truth dancer!
It's nice to have a friend here.
_GoodK

Re: Reply to GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

hopeofzion wrote:I have no idea what you mean by "Mormon Lord" ...please elaborate. I am aware of only one God.


Nope, there are thousands of other "Gods", and surely you are aware of them. You seem to only believe in one, but that doesn't mean yours is the same, as say, the W.F Muhammad version. Nor does it mean they are all one in the same. Let me know if any of that isn't clear still :)

hopeofzion wrote:
Don't have Book of Mormon in front of me, but does the Bible speak of pyramids or lost tribes being led to south america?
I don't think any pyramid has ever migrated anywhere that I am aware of. That was a joke. ;-) However, in regards to the Bible testifying to the movement of the lost tribes, I would love to speak to, however, only with someone who is sincere in wanting to know. Since the opening statement of your post seems to indicate you don't even hold the Bible to be true, what would be the value in me showing you what the Bible has to say about this topic? If I have misunderstood your stance, please correct me.


Of course I don't hold the Bible to be true. The short time I've spent here and at MADB, I have read countless arguments - most of them perfectly legitimate - against the Book of Mormon's truthfulness. Despite numerous posts, I have yet to read an argument that is even remotely legitimate, compelling, or based on good evidence for the Bible. Maybe you can provide the first !


But you won't speak with someone about the Bible testifying to the movement of lost tribes unless they hold the Bible to be true?

Is it because your response would include a faith-based claim?
I'm not going to beg for your response on this, but if you have one I'm sincere in wanting to hear it.

And more on confirmation biases later.
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

charity wrote:There are none so blind as those who will not see.


Oe else in a leather hood.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_hopeofzion
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Post by _hopeofzion »

Nope, there are thousands of other "Gods", and surely you are aware of them. You seem to only believe in one, but that doesn't mean yours is the same, as say, the W.F Muhammad version. Nor does it mean they are all one in the same. Let me know if any of that isn't clear still :)
What I am aware of is that people across this plant believe in all kinds things, whether gods, or a higher power of some kind. That does not mean I am aware of the existence of other gods. I am not.
Of course I don't hold the Bible to be true. The short time I've spent here and at MADB, I have read countless arguments - most of them perfectly legitimate - against the Book of Mormon's truthfulness. Despite numerous posts, I have yet to read an argument that is even remotely legitimate, compelling, or based on good evidence for the Bible. Maybe you can provide the first !
I must regrettfuly inform you that it is not my duty, thankfully, to try to prove God, the Bible, or any other book or religion to you. The Spirit of Christ is given to every man to show them right from wrong, if we choose to listen to it. That path leads us to peace, not conflict within and with others. A teacher cannot teach anything at all to the student who will not invest in, or care anything for what they have to teach. When you are hungry, you will eat. Not before. You're a big girl. I cannot force feed you.
But you won't speak with someone about the Bible testifying to the movement of lost tribes unless they hold the Bible to be true?
I would very plainly show through the prophets in the Bible that the lost tribes were to be scattered throughout the globe among all the gentiles in every nation, even to the isles of the seas. But so what? What does that mean to you? You're unbelief makes it meaningless to you. Why would you want me to do this?

In fact, I wonder why you are even here on a Mormon discussion board. Not that I have any desire for you to go. Not that you don't have a right to be here, or to question anything you wish. And not because I feel the least bit threatened by your challenges. But I have honestly never really understood why any person would devote even one ounce of their time or energy arguing and debating about something they choose not to believe in, with people who do choose to believe in it.

Except they have experienced some personal injury, or are angry over something in their past, which drives them. Sometimes we feel compelled to confront wrongs, or speak our mind. This isn't always wrong, but I would recount the native american parable about two wolves within us (we choose which one to feed). Instead of dealing with what is really driving going on inside, which needs to be dealt with in order to bring them true peace so that they can move on, some tend to externalize the problem, and channel their energies at other people, blaming religion, government, a church, a race, a belief system, or whatever.

I am not the least bit interested in trying to prove anything to you, because you're not interested in proofs, and so it would be a futile exercise.

I will tell you what I am truly interested in, at this point in our discussion... I am interested in knowing what drives you, and in getting to know you better.
_charity
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Post by _charity »

moksha wrote:
charity wrote:There are none so blind as those who will not see.


Oe else in a leather hood.


Pssst, moksha. You're a penguin, not a hawk.
_moksha
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

charity wrote:
moksha wrote:
charity wrote:There are none so blind as those who will not see.


Oe else in a leather hood.


Pssst, moksha. You're a penguin, not a hawk.


You're right! Make love and not war....

Image
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Inconceivable
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Wayne May

Post by _Inconceivable »

Wayne May is part of a publication called "the Ancient American"

ancientamerican.com

I subscribed to the magazine for about 5 years or so when I was TBM. I have a different take now. I finally ditched the magazine after seeing years of Burrows Cave articles as the main carrot for the subscription. Supposedly there is a cave back East that has all kinds of artifacts that prove Jesus was here or that he was at least worshipped by the ancients. Problem is that the shifty guy who found it won't tell anyone the real location because it isn't his land and he's still trying to strike some deal with the owner - for years and years and years.

A whole lot of nothing.

Some of the articals were intriguing but were surrounded by mounds of speculation with an occasional cool picture.

Very anti Smithsonian conspiracy type stuff.
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

hopeofzion wrote:
Nope, there are thousands of other "Gods", and surely you are aware of them. You seem to only believe in one, but that doesn't mean yours is the same, as say, the W.F Muhammad version. Nor does it mean they are all one in the same. Let me know if any of that isn't clear still :)
What I am aware of is that people across this plant believe in all kinds things, whether gods, or a higher power of some kind. That does not mean I am aware of the existence of other gods. I am not.


*Hmmm*
hopeofzion wrote:I must regrettfuly inform you that it is not my duty, thankfully, to try to prove God, the Bible, or any other book or religion to you. The Spirit of Christ is given to every man to show them right from wrong, if we choose to listen to it. That path leads us to peace, not conflict within and with others. A teacher cannot teach anything at all to the student who will not invest in, or care anything for what they have to teach. When you are hungry, you will eat. Not before. You're a big girl. I cannot force feed you.


Apparently you can't do anything but make claims about mythical things like the spirit of Christ, all the while avoiding questions with patronizing, arrogant nonsense.

Thankfully, no one asked nor did they inform you it was your duty to prove anything.
I simply stated I had yet to see one descent argument for the Bible, one pieced together with as much evidence and reason critics of the Mormon church use here and in real life.

By the way, I assume you are a big boy, and thus know that if you want to be taken serious in the real world, you can't just say things like

God really loves them, [Mormons] and He is about to do something that will bring many of them out of a form of bondage, which many of them are in, (those who will), and draw them into a much closer relationship with Himself...
And this is all a part of the work of the Father... where he will draw all that are His into ONE, even the lost tribes of Israel. Zion!
and expect me not to call you on it.
**a little background on GoodK**
It is borderline offensive to me when:
1. People pretend to speak for and or know God and his intentions in an intellectual or adult setting.
2. Religious people who seem comfortable enough using evidence or reason to publicly criticize the Mormon faith, yet can't seem to piece together a community college level string of words in support of the Bible or their own faith.

doug wrote:
But you won't speak with someone about the Bible testifying to the movement of lost tribes unless they hold the Bible to be true?
I would very plainly show through the prophets in the Bible that the lost tribes were to be scattered throughout the globe among all the gentiles in every nation, even to the isles of the seas. But so what? What does that mean to you? You're unbelief makes it meaningless to you. Why would you want me to do this?


This is really quite simple. Really simple. I ask, where does it say (fill in the blank) in the Bible. Where are you getting this belief of yours that you are positing on the internet in a public forum. You say it is here in (fill in book, chapter, verse). I say, wow, you are really understanding that passage differently, or I say, hmmm, interesting I wonder what the implications are...

When you continually avoid answering questions, the only thing I can infer is that you don't have an answer. Please don't be so arrogant.

In fact, I wonder why you are even here on a Mormon discussion board. Not that I have any desire for you to go. Not that you don't have a right to be here, or to question anything you wish. And not because I feel the least bit threatened by your challenges. But I have honestly never really understood why any person would devote even one ounce of their time or energy arguing and debating about something they choose not to believe in, with people who do choose to believe in it.

Except they have experienced some personal injury, or are angry over something in their past, which drives them. Sometimes we feel compelled to confront wrongs, or speak our mind. This isn't always wrong, but I would recount the native american parable about two wolves within us (we choose which one to feed). Instead of dealing with what is really driving going on inside, which needs to be dealt with in order to bring them true peace so that they can move on, some tend to externalize the problem, and channel their energies at other people, blaming religion, government, a church, a race, a belief system, or whatever.

I am not the least bit interested in trying to prove anything to you, because you're not interested in proofs, and so it would be a futile exercise.

I will tell you what I am truly interested in, at this point in our discussion... I am interested in knowing what drives you, and in getting to know you better.


And 3:

Religious people (who pretend to hold humility as a virtue) who are arrogant enough to imply that I am undeserving of their intellectual and enlightening answer to my question regarding one of their many unlikely claims.

You carry on at some length in your posts, yet it's all fluff. Let's get down to brass tacks, man.

You are already resorting to ad hominems. Don't. You can do better.

GoodK's version of your internet discussion board psychology:

You know there are no better reasons to believe in the Bible or in Jesus Christ alone as there are to believe in the Book of Mormon and in Joseph Smith's teachings. You are slowly realizing that you have no good reasons to support your faith at all, and you don't know what to do with that feeling.

When you lay alone at night, you feel alone, you don't feel connected to a God, and slowly your faith is being replaced by common knowledge and your own reasoning.

You must have some very close ties with religion, I imagine you are very close with some religious people - perhaps your family, spouse, friends, - and don't know how to reconcile such a conflict within your head.

So you come here, and I imagine other similar places, to convince yourself more. You have to.
_hopeofzion
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Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:14 pm

GoodK

Post by _hopeofzion »

GoodK,

Is it possible that you may be guilty of what you accuse me of. Are you being humble? Or is your attitude one of arrogance and someone who thinks they have the answer already? You be the judge.

I came here in peace, seeking fellowship with fellow believers to discuss matters of faith without contention. I did not come here to be drawn into endless debates with those who feel that I (and my beliefs) are quite beneath them. If this is NOT how you feel, then your attitude/words betray your true nature.

This interaction did NOT begin by me responding to a post of yours, trying to convince you that you were wrong, or that you should believe as I do. Rather, you responded to my post, which was in no way a challenge to those who don't even believe in the Scriptures. It was an attempt at a peaceful discussion with those that do believe in them. That does not mean I wouldn't welcome discussion with those who are not Believers, but I will not engage those who seem hostile, as it is useless.

GoodK - What is the absolute truth in this case is that you know nothing about me, whatsoever, and so your pronounced judgments upon me are quite meaningless. You don't know what I have been through, what I know, the mistakes I have made, the things I have suffered, the experiences I have had, what kind of person I am, or how and why I believe as I do. I suggest to you that it is entirely possible for someone to believe in God, the Scriptures, and to have a personal relationship with Him, and not be either crazy or an idiot. Until you deliver yourself from that belief, we have no basis for a discussion.

You'll simply have to excuse the fact that I don't choose to expend time and energy trying to convince someone who is already hostile and clearly cannot be convinced by any argument, no matter how good. I've been through that process too many times already. A mind that is made up cannot be dislodged from its purpose. You have already belittled and tried to diminish a very precious testimony I shared, and you claim to be offended by the very notion that I (or others) could have a personal interaction or receive enlightenment directly from God. What is more is there to talk about?

Perhaps one day in the future, when you are less angry and more open, we can talk again.
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