Urim & Thummim and Book of Mormon Translation

Post by **_TrashcanMan79** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:23 pm

I could have sworn in the twenty-plus years I spent in the Church, I was always taught that the Book of Mormon was translated by use of the Urim and Thummim. On my mission I learned about the whole head-in-the-hat thing, but I suppose I always just assumed that that method was in addition to the U&T. But in reading an entry in the FAIRWiki, the impression is given that the U&T were used only in the 116 pages that were lost, and the rest was translated via Smith's seer stones. Is this correct? This is the first time I'm hearing this, and, if true, I'm surprised that I either haven't come across this before or haven't thought enough of it to remember it if I have come across it.

The relevant portion from the FAIR article:

Following the loss of the 116 pages, the Lord told Joseph:

1 NOW, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.
2 And you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened.
3 Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again; therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun.
4 Do not run faster or labor more than you have strength and means provided to enable you to translate; but be diligent unto the end. (D&C 10:1-4)

Thus, "it" (Joseph's gift) was restored to him, but there is no indication that the Nephite interpreters (Urim and Thummim) were also returned, Joseph having also lost "them." That is, after repenting, Joseph would recover his seer stones, but apparently not the the Urim and Thummim.

Is there no historical support for supposing that the U&T were used in translating any portions of the Book of Mormon as we have it?

Thanks.

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:28 pm

I was always confused about this, myself. Thanks for starting a thread about it here.

Post by **_charity** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:10 pm

The entire FAIR wiki is found here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_seer_stones

There is evidence that the Urim and Thummim were not returned after the 116 pages were lost and they, along with the plates, were removed from Joseph's custody.

There is also evidence that the Urim and Thummim were rather unweildly, as one witness said, they did not fit Joseph comfortably, being made for a larger man. *

I was told personally by a person who has worked closely in the Church Archives that the Urum and THummim are not there, but the seer stone is.

*Joseph was over 6 feet tall, so that makes me wonder how tall Moroni and Mormon were.

Post by **_TrashcanMan79** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:42 pm

charity wrote:There is evidence that the Urim and Thummim were not returned after the 116 pages were lost and they, along with the plates, were removed from Joseph's custody.

So the Book of Mormon as we have it was not received via the U&T, if this is correct. This has me wondering if I have just misunderstood what I have been taught in all those years of Sunday School, Seminary, and Family Home Evening, or if there is just a large amount of misinformation out there on this matter.

Post by **_Boaz & Lidia** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:44 pm

charity wrote:I was told personally by a person who has worked closely in the Church Archives that the Urum and THummim are not there, but the seer stone is.

You have got to be kidding me! Who would have thought?

charity wrote:*Joseph was over 6 feet tall, so that makes me wonder how tall Moroni and Mormon were.

I've often wondered how tall the Hobbit was as well.

Post by **_charity** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:47 pm

TrashcanMan79 wrote:
charity wrote:There is evidence that the Urim and Thummim were not returned after the 116 pages were lost and they, along with the plates, were removed from Joseph's custody.

So the Book of Mormon as we have it was not received via the U&T, if this is correct. This has me wondering if I have just misunderstood what I have been taught in all those years of Sunday School, Seminary, and Family Home Evening, or if there is just a large amount of misinformation out there on this matter.

I think there is a lot of well meaning misinformation about there. Faith promoting rumors and all that. And we should be ashamed of ourselves as a people for not better educating ourselvs.

Post by **_moksha** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:14 pm

Wasn't the Urim and Thummim something from the Torah that got appended to the First Vision story at a later date? Weren't they just a couple of stones with the letters for Yes and No scribbled on the front and back and attached to a breastplate? I can see the yes and no being handy in decision making where all other things are equal, such as whether to watch a Pauly Shore movie or burn your yourself, however, when it came to sheer translational ability could they really hold a candle to the power of the Seer Stones?

Post by **_skippy the dead** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:38 pm

charity wrote:The entire FAIR wiki is found here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_seer_stones

So I read this, and I think it made me dumber. I could feel IQ points dropping to the floor and shriveling up.

It amazes me that the ridiculous use of a rock for "revelation" is so completely rationalized in a way to try to make it seem so logical. Training wheels for receiving revelation? Really??

(Sorry if this isn't celestial enough - I toned it down best I could.)

Post by **_moksha** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:05 am

From the FairWiki:

Has the Church tried to hide Joseph's use of a seer stone?

The Church has been very frank about the seer stone's use, though the product of the translation of the Book of Mormon is usually given much more attention that the process. It would be strange to try to hide something by having an apostle talk about it, and then send the account to every LDS home in the official magazine!

Have we seen this:

or this:

Post by **_Boaz & Lidia** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:52 am

moksha wrote:From the FairWiki:
Has the Church tried to hide Joseph's use of a seer stone?

The Church has been very frank about the seer stone's use, though the product of the translation of the Book of Mormon is usually given much more attention that the process. It would be strange to try to hide something by having an apostle talk about it, and then send the account to every LDS home in the official magazine!

Have we seen this:

or this:

I saw neiter growing up in TSCC. I saw the image of smith translating and his scribe behind a drape so that he could not see the spechul translation work and plates as written by smith and others.
Lies and lies about the lies.... How on earth does a single guy like you stay in this organization?