Conflicting Testimony

[_moksha]

What do believers do with conflicting testimony?

~dancer~

Given the diversity of human beliefs and experiences, I think conflicting testimonies are to be expected.
We all have our own individual truths and that is okay. What we should do with it as per the question,
is to respect the beliefs of others and try to maintain good and loving relationships with them.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Whoa Nelly! According to the dead Prophet(Hinckley) the entire validity of the LDS church rest upon one key event. NOT anything about the Book of Mormon.

Did the First Vision® factually actually occur as recorded or not?

The dead prophet said if it did not then this ENTIRE work(LDS Inc) is a fraud.

Pretty strong word eh?

Keep reading...

By Smith's own journal entries, that First Vision® did not occur as presently recorded in his own canonized history, so why bother arguing about where the Hobbit lived? Errr Moroni?

[_ludwigm]

I have the testimony - confirmed by the Holy Ghost - that the Book of Mormon is false.
From this point on, the problems with historicity, or places, or events are don't exist for me, as the places and events didn't exist.
Once and for all.

But ...

A new problem appeared.

Variations:
1. There are two HG, one for charity and one for me. Or there are as many HG as we people who try to use his/her/its confirmation.
2. There is one HG but says different things to different people.
3. There is no such thing as HG, people get that answer that they like.
4. My HG was not the real HG, it was my will.
5. My HG was the real one but I have interpreted it wrong.
6. I don't know other variations, it's Your turn. Or choose one above.

Nota bene. Do You see the absurdity?

[_Inconceivable]

I'm wondering how believers deal with conflicting testimony?

~dancer~

It depends on how threatened they perceive their testimony to be.


For example:

Some will make up ridiculous rules to cast dispersions/doubt upon a
non-believer's character to shore up the facade they call testimony.

I can tell you have never been a school teacher.

1) Ch#%&ty asserts that she is or has been a school teacher.

2) This qualifies her as an authority figure because..

3) ..it makes the assumption that only a school teacher knows the true nature of children

(and then she compares them to horses with trainers that don't know when they are thirsty, even though by nature,
horses know when they need to drink to live - incorrectly comparing choice with understanding).

4) Because I am not/nor ever have been a school teacher - I have now been disqualified as a threat.


Ch%#ty's doubts are now safe again. Self denial remaining in tact.


(Fact of the matter, we have all known stupid misunderstood school teachers)

[_truth dancer]

We do not confront anyone or tell them their experience is not valid.

I'm not really asking what you tell others, I'm wondering how you explain it? Do you think they are mistaking or misunderstanding the HG?

I would hope that no one bothers the Holy Ghost to gain a testimony of something that doesn't matter.

I know many people who have prayed about the location of the Book of Mormon.

Many folks are spending a lot of money, time, and energy on trying to find evidence for the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. I would find it hard to believe these strong believers have not sought guidance from the HG in their efforts. Do you really think these believers have not prayed about their work? Their purpose? Their research? Their articles?

I said I would not dispute HOZ's testimony. And I don't think this is worth aruging over. Dr. Sorenson published his work and repeatedly said this is what he thinks. Wayne May can publish his work, give lectures, etc. all he wants. IT DOESN'T MATTER.

While it may not matter to you, it does seem to matter to quite a number of believers.

I have never heard anyone, before HOZ, who said they had a testimony of any geographical, archeological, anthropological facts.

I hear it all the time. Maybe it is because I live close to the area of the country where many believe the final battle took place. Frequently believers bear their testimony of the wars and the people who lived here.

But then again, Joseph Smith seemed to have born testimony of this as well.

The Holy Ghost is always accurate. The Holy Ghost does not give witnsses to conflicting truths. We mortal fallible humans may misunderstand what the Holy Ghost sends.

So when testimonies conflict you are asserting it is the fault of human interpretation?

I think it is possible that HOZ received a testimony that the Book of Mormon lands were on the North American Continent. I believe that. After all , the Mes-American area IS in North America.

Let me be more specific. HoZ received a strong testimony that the Book of Mormon lands were in the Northern portion of the United States of America.

I understand you will not say his testimony is invalid but if he is the only person you ever heard of who received a testimony regarding where the Book of Mormon people lived and died, maybe believers should take note?

If the HG is to be trusted it seems this testimony Trump's all the apologists statements and "research" no?

Or might HoZ have misinterpreted the HG? If so, it seems people have a very limited ability to tell what is or is not the HG's inspiration.

~dancer~

[_truth dancer]

Hi Ludwigm,

A new problem appeared.

Variations:
1. There are two HG, one for charity and one for me. Or there are as many HG as we people who try to use his/her/its confirmation.
2. There is one HG but says different things to different people.
3. There is no such thing as HG, people get that answer that they like.
4. My HG was not the real HG, it was my will.
5. My HG was the real one but I have interpreted it wrong.
6. I don't know other variations, it's Your turn. Or choose one above.

I think this pretty much covers it! :-)

It seems that believers, while they may acknowledge that others misinterpret the HG clearly believe THEY do NOT misinterpret the HG.

So, I guess the question then becomes how does one know if they are or are not getting it right?

Answer: the HG will tell you.

Response: But the HG can be misinterpreted.

And round and round we go.

:-)

Even the prophets and leaders seem unable to NOT misunderstand or misinterpret. Even when they think they ARE indeed understanding correctly.

Bottom line, the HG seem a VERY unreliable way to discover truth.

~dancer~

[_charity]

I'm not really asking what you tell others, I'm wondering how you explain it? Do you think they are mistaking or misunderstanding the HG?

In the case of the testimony of what Wayne May was saying, I don't know. I personally believe the Mes-American setting is the correct one. I also believe that the Holy Ghost has more important things to do than to provide testimony of a particular geography question. Now, did the witness that HopeofZion received come from the Holy Ghost? Did it mean that Zarahemla was in Michigan? From my view, I would think not. I explain it this way. IF this was a witness of the Holy Ghost, and not just enthusiasm for a oonvincing speaker, then the witness was NOT that the Book of Mormon lands were in Michigan, but that they were in North America, which HOZ actually stated. There is the possibility that this would also be used by Satan to provide a way for a person to be disillusioned when/if some archeological discovery shows Zarahemla to be in Meso-America. Then HOZ could be left doubting.

So, yes, I think misinterpretation or misunderstanding is the root cause of most conflicting testimonies.

I would hope that no one bothers the Holy Ghost to gain a testimony of something that doesn't matter.

I know many people who have prayed about the location of the Book of Mormon.

Many folks are spending a lot of money, time, and energy on trying to find evidence for the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. I would find it hard to believe these strong believers have not sought guidance from the HG in their efforts. Do you really think these believers have not prayed about their work? Their purpose? Their research? Their articles?

I have read most of the articles, books, etc. I have never read where anyone said they had received a witness of the Holy Ghost that their ideas, etc. Sorenson repeatedly states that this is his opinion. Well thought out and reasoned of course, but his opinion.

I said I would not dispute HOZ's testimony. And I don't think this is worth aruging over. Dr. Sorenson published his work and repeatedly said this is what he thinks. Wayne May can publish his work, give lectures, etc. all he wants. IT DOESN'T MATTER.

While it may not matter to you, it does seem to matter to quite a number of believers.

Well, it shouldn't matter. The reason for the Book of Mormon is its message. It doesn't matter exactly where Zarahemla was.

I have never heard anyone, before HOZ, who said they had a testimony of any geographical, archeological, anthropological facts.

I hear it all the time. Maybe it is because I live close to the area of the country where many believe the final battle took place. Frequently believers bear their testimony of the wars and the people who lived here.

Then see my response above. Unless the Holy Ghost confirms for me what the person is saying was from Him, then I put it on the shelf. I don't necessarily disbelieve what the person is saying is from the Holy Ghost. I just don't necessarily believe it was. I can wait.

But then again, Joseph Smith seemed to have born testimony of this as well.

If you study carefully, you will see that Joseph Smith never stated that the location of the Book of Mormon cities was revealed to him. After making some statements of his opinion about events in the northern American setting, he also expressed great interest in the Meso-American area. He had a brilliant mind, and was endlessly curious. AND the location of Book of Mormon events was never revealed to him.

The Holy Ghost is always accurate. The Holy Ghost does not give witnsses to conflicting truths. We mortal fallible humans may misunderstand what the Holy Ghost sends.

So when testimonies conflict you are asserting it is the fault of human interpretation?

Yes.

I think it is possible that HOZ received a testimony that the Book of Mormon lands were on the North American Continent. I believe that. After all , the Mes-American area IS in North America.

Let me be more specific. HoZ received a strong testimony that the Book of Mormon lands were in the Northern portion of the United States of America.

I understand you will not say his testimony is invalid but if he is the only person you ever heard of who received a testimony regarding where the Book of Mormon people lived and died, maybe believers should take note?

I told you I will not say his testimony is not real. But since this conflicts with what I think, until the Holy Gost confirms for me that it was a witness, I put it on the shelf.

[
If the HG is to be trusted it seems this testimony Trump's all the apologists statements and "research" no?

No. We trust the Holy Ghost. We don't have to trust what every person says the Holy Ghost told him. That is only second hand.

[
Or might HoZ have misinterpreted the HG? If so, it seems people have a very limited ability to tell what is or is not the HG's inspiration.

That is the problem. We are mortal and fallible.

[_truth dancer]

No. We trust the Holy Ghost. We don't have to trust what every person says the Holy Ghost told him. That is only second hand.

Actually, I'm talking about one's very own understanding.

In other words, it seems that people often believe they are receiving a witness from the HG but are mistaken. People know (believe) they have been given truth from the HG but come to find out they were mistaken.

I'm not just talking about LDS folks here... it seems a common experience among many types of believers, whether a Scientologist, Catholic, FLDS, JW, EV, LDS, or whomever.

Since humans get conflicting information, and since the problem according to some believers is that people misinterpret and make mistakes, discovering truth through the HG seems a very unreliable way to come to truth.

~dancer~

[_charity]

I'm wondering how believers deal with conflicting testimony?

~dancer~

It depends on how threatened they perceive their testimony to be.


For example:

Some will make up ridiculous rules to cast dispersions/doubt upon a
non-believer's character to shore up the facade they call testimony.

I never do that. I have never heard anyone say anything disparaging about another's testimony. We mayb shelve them, but that is not disparaging.

I can tell you have never been a school teacher.

1) Ch#%&ty asserts that she is or has been a school teacher.

2) This qualifies her as an authority figure because..

3) ..it makes the assumption that only a school teacher knows the true nature of children

(and then she compares them to horses with trainers that don't know when they are thirsty, even though by nature,
horses know when they need to drink to live - incorrectly comparing choice with understanding).

4) Because I am not/nor ever have been a school teacher - I have now been disqualified as a threat.

Yes, I was a school teacher, now retired. I taught child development and while not an "expert" I do know a bit about the subject. No, it isn't only school teachers who know the nature of children. I have a master's degree in psychology, and am old, which has given me a lot of experience with people. I thought you understood the rest of the "horse to water" adage. The complete thing is "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You can lead a child to knowledge, but you can't make him think."

Ch%#ty's doubts are now safe again. Self denial remaining in tact.

I am sure you would like to think I have "doubts." Sorry, I can't give you that consolation. My doubts are little ones, and transitory.

[


(Fact of the matter, we have all known stupid misunderstood school teachers)

We have all had teachers who weren't the brightest bulbs in the chandeliers. But let me tell you, out of the 5,000 students I had over my teaching career, there were quite a few who could not follow instructions. For example: I always told my students as I was explaining the requirements for their term papers, I wanted the pages merely stapled together, no folders, no fancy looking covers, etc. I even told them not only was I NOT impressed by fancy covers, I would subtract points if they used one becaue of a blantant attempt Old Testament divert my attention from the content. For emphasis, I even displayed a visual on the overhead projector of a cartoon of Calvin thinking he could get away with a mediocre term paper becaue he had put it in a fancy report cover and then being shocked that he had failed. Were those instructions clear? Did I ever get term papers in report covers? Only about 5 out of every class of 50! And no, I never subtracted a point for those students.

Capeesh?

[_charity]

No. We trust the Holy Ghost. We don't have to trust what every person says the Holy Ghost told him. That is only second hand.

Actually, I'm talking about one's very own understanding.

In other words, it seems that people often believe they are receiving a witness from the HG but are mistaken. People know (believe) they have been given truth from the HG but come to find out they were mistaken.

I'm not just talking about LDS folks here... it seems a common experience among many types of believers, whether a Scientologist, Catholic, FLDS, JW, EV, LDS, or whomever.

Since humans get conflicting information, and since the problem according to some believers is that people misinterpret and make mistakes, discovering truth through the HG seems a very unreliable way to come to truth.

~dancer~

I would say that they aren't mistaken that they have received a witness. They can just be mistaken about what that witness means. For instance, in a famous, or infamous case, a person in high leadership places relayed stories which were not in actual fact accurate. Puffed up. Many people were disillusioned because they had felt the influence of the Holy Ghost as he was relatning stories of sacrifice, of serving their fellow men, etc. The Holy Ghost was not witnessing to them the truth of the facts of the events, but to the truths of service, loving your fellow man, etc.