Conflicting Testimony

[_Yoda]

And no, I never subtracted a point for those students.

If I had gone to through that much effort, I WOULD have subtracted points! ;)

[_truth dancer]

I would say that they aren't mistaken that they have received a witness. They can just be mistaken about what that witness means. For instance, in a famous, or infamous case, a person in high leadership places relayed stories which were not in actual fact accurate. Puffed up. Many people were disillusioned because they had felt the influence of the Holy Ghost as he was relatning stories of sacrifice, of serving their fellow men, etc. The Holy Ghost was not witnessing to them the truth of the facts of the events, but to the truths of service, loving your fellow man, etc.

So, a HG witness of the Book of Mormon could be a witness that pride is not a good thing?

The HG witnessing that a prophet is a prophet may be that he is just the head of the LDS church?

The HG witnessing that Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus Christ could be that it is nice to pray?

The HG witnessing that the CoJCoLDS is true could be that it is as true as any other?

The HG witnessing that the CoJCoLDS is NOT true could be that it is as untrue as every other?

If people can't figure out what the HG is actually witnessing to, it makes for quite a bit of confusion.

I'm still wondering how believers (of every religion that believes they are the one and only), explains the fact that the HG seems to be witnessing to all sorts of people, all sorts of truths.

If the problem is folks cannot figure out how to correctly interpret the witness, how is any person to know what is or is not true?

Everyone thinks they are right but it seems no one has a system to figure out how to know if they are interpreting correctly.

I have still have not had an answer to the question: Since the prophets and leaders of the LDS church cannot correctly interpret the HG, and falsely believe they are receiving truth or inspiration when they are not, how does anyone else think they can? And how would anyone know if they were interpreting the HG correctly or incorrectly?

~dancer~

[_ludwigm]

No. We trust the Holy Ghost. We don't have to trust what every person says the Holy Ghost told him. That is only second hand.

Actually, I'm talking about one's very own understanding.
In other words, it seems that people often believe they are receiving a witness from the HG but are mistaken. People know (believe) they have been given truth from the HG but come to find out they were mistaken.
I'm not just talking about LDS folks here... it seems a common experience among many types of believers, whether a Scientologist, Catholic, FLDS, JW, EV, LDS, or whomever.
Since humans get conflicting information, and since the problem according to some believers is that people misinterpret and make mistakes, discovering truth through the HG seems a very unreliable way to come to truth.
~dancer~

I would say that they aren't mistaken that they have received a witness. They can just be mistaken about what that witness means. For instance, in a famous, or infamous case, a person in high leadership places relayed stories which were not in actual fact accurate. Puffed up. Many people were disillusioned because they had felt the influence of the Holy Ghost as he was relatning stories of sacrifice, of serving their fellow men, etc. The Holy Ghost was not witnessing to them the truth of the facts of the events, but to the truths of service, loving your fellow man, etc.

"We don't have to trust what every person says the Holy Ghost told him. That is only second hand."
- For example, I don't trust what You say. That is only second hand. We are equal. Are we?

"I would say that they aren't mistaken that they have received a witness. They can just be mistaken about what that witness means."
- According to You, You and Your branch can not mistaken about what witnessing means.. Aren't we equal in error?

"The Holy Ghost was not witnessing to them the truth"
- Witnessing the truth is the privilege of the members of the only true church , including You.


Don't You see the absurdity?

[_charity]

I would say that they aren't mistaken that they have received a witness. They can just be mistaken about what that witness means. For instance, in a famous, or infamous case, a person in high leadership places relayed stories which were not in actual fact accurate. Puffed up. Many people were disillusioned because they had felt the influence of the Holy Ghost as he was relatning stories of sacrifice, of serving their fellow men, etc. The Holy Ghost was not witnessing to them the truth of the facts of the events, but to the truths of service, loving your fellow man, etc.

So, a HG witness of the Book of Mormon could be a witness that pride is not a good thing?

The HG witnessing that a prophet is a prophet may be that he is just the head of the LDS church?

The HG witnessing that Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus Christ could be that it is nice to pray?

The HG witnessing that the CoJCoLDS is true could be that it is as true as any other?

The HG witnessing that the CoJCoLDS is NOT true could be that it is as untrue as every other?

If people can't figure out what the HG is actually witnessing to, it makes for quite a bit of confusion.

I'm still wondering how believers (of every religion that believes they are the one and only), explains the fact that the HG seems to be witnessing to all sorts of people, all sorts of truths.

If the problem is folks cannot figure out how to correctly interpret the witness, how is any person to know what is or is not true?

Everyone thinks they are right but it seems no one has a system to figure out how to know if they are interpreting correctly.

I have still have not had an answer to the question: Since the prophets and leaders of the LDS church cannot correctly interpret the HG, and falsely believe they are receiving truth or inspiration when they are not, how does anyone else think they can? And how would anyone know if they were interpreting the HG correctly or incorrectly?

~dancer~

You make such sweeping assumptions it is hard to discuss with you.

Every body thinks he/she is right. The TEST is that there is one real truth, and you have to find it. God provides tutelage. If you do not receive it, you don't learn how to discover truth. This life is a TEST. Remember?

Your question, "I have still have not had an answer to the question: Since the prophets and leaders of the LDS church cannot correctly interpret the HG, and falsely believe they are receiving truth or inspiration when they are not, how does anyone else think they can? And how would anyone know if they were interpreting the HG correctly or incorrectly?" is bogus. The prophets and leaders of the LDS Church can, and have and continue to correctly interpret the witness of the Holy Ghost. When your basic premise is false, the rest of the question is bogus also.

[_truth dancer]

OK, lets take this one step at a time.

1. Are prophets fallible?

2. Have they made mistakes speaking in an official capacity?

3. Do you think prophets, apostles and other leaders of the church pray and ask for inspiration before they speak as representatives of the divine?

4. Do you think prophets, apostles and other leaders of the LDS church believe they receive inspiration as they speak as representative of the divine?

5. Assuming you believe prophets are fallible, could you give us an example of a time when you believe they made a mistake in an official capacity?

6. Do you believe many people in other religions believe THEY are following the true path of God/Jesus/Allah/Divinity?

7. Do you believe others believe they have had a spiritual witness that confirms they are indeed following truth/God?

8. Do you agree that many believers in religion think THEIR spiritual experiences/beliefs are the correct ones?


OK, so, IF you agree that others may believe as strongly as do you that their beliefs are true, how is one to know if a spiritual witness is the one true one?

In other words, how do you know YOURS is true other than because you have had a spiritual witness. And how would others (with conflicting truth) know THEIRS is true other than because of their spiritual witness?

Did God create a way to tell anyone they have made a mistake? Or that they are not actually passing the test even though they believe they are? Or that what they believe is a spiritual confirmation or witness of truth may actually NOT be correct?

I hope this helps.

Every body thinks he/she is right. The TEST is that there is one real truth, and you have to find it. God provides tutelage. If you do not receive it, you don't learn how to discover truth. This life is a TEST. Remember?

I understand you believe this life is a test. My question is, how do believers who believe they are right but are wrong know they are not passing the test? Or those believers who believe they have truth, discover they are wrong? Or those who believe they have had a spiritual witness discover they are mistaken?


~dancer~

[_charity]

So we won't have to deal with that quote thing all the time, I will put my answers in bold.

OK, lets take this one step at a time.

1. Are prophets fallible?

Yes.

2. Have they made mistakes speaking in an official capacity?

I wouldn't disallow the possiblity, but I don't of any such instance.

3. Do you think prophets, apostles and other leaders of the church pray and ask for inspiration before they speak as representatives of the divine?

Yes.

4. Do you think prophets, apostles and other leaders of the LDS church believe they receive inspiration as they speak as representative of the divine?

Yes.

5. Assuming you believe prophets are fallible, could you give us an example of a time when you believe they made a mistake in an official capacity?

No. I don't know of any.

6. Do you believe many people in other religions believe THEY are following the true path of God/Jesus/Allah/Divinity?

I assume they do.
7. Do you believe others believe they have had a spiritual witness that confirms they are indeed following truth/God?

I am sure they do.

8. Do you agree that many believers in religion think THEIR spiritual experiences/beliefs are the correct ones?

Yes.


OK, so, IF you agree that others may believe as strongly as do you that their beliefs are true, how is one to know if a spiritual witness is the one true one?

You have to live the truth you know.

In other words, how do you know YOURS is true other than because you have had a spiritual witness. And how would others (with conflicting truth) know THEIRS is true other than because of their spiritual witness?

There won't be "conflicting" truth. Someone may feel that his membership in, say, the Baptist church right, and another person may feel her membership in the SDA church is right. Those don't conflict. For those individuals, they may each be where they are supposed to be.

Did God create a way to tell anyone they have made a mistake? Or that they are not actually passing the test even though they believe they are? Or that what they believe is a spiritual confirmation or witness of truth may actually NOT be correct?

God's test is if you live true to the witness you have received. A person who lives up to what they have been given wll be given more. The person who denies, or fails to respect the truth given, will not receive more, and even lose what he had been given. This is found in the New Testament in the parable of the talents.

I hope this helps.

Helps who?

Every body thinks he/she is right. The TEST is that there is one real truth, and you have to find it. God provides tutelage. If you do not receive it, you don't learn how to discover truth. This life is a TEST. Remember?

I understand you believe this life is a test. My question is, how do believers who believe they are right but are wrong know they are not passing the test?

If they are living the truth they have been given, and the Light of Christ lets them know, they are passing the test.

I think many people who will repeatedly say they know they are right, really have doubts about how "right" they are.
If they are denying the truth, if they are figthing the truth, they are failing, and they know it. There is that nudge of doubt in their present course, there are those feelings not of God--hatred,bitterness,anger--which tell them their present course is not right. But their pride will not allow them to admit it. So they find refuge in building arguments about why they have to be right. These are the people who actively fight against the Church.

Or those believers who believe they have truth, discover they are wrong? Or those who believe they have had a spiritual witness discover they are mistaken?

I have known many people who have joined the Church, who feel that their previous church and religious experiences were good and helpful to them in their lives. They believe they have received added truth from time to time. Which is the way God works. It is the description, even, of the childhood and youth of the Savior.

I think there are many who have had a witness of the Spirit, who later come to deny that witness. They come to believe they were mistaken. That doesn't mean they were. It only means that they have once had a witness and have lost it.

The Book of Mormon addresses this issue.

2 Nephi 8:28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

You can see in harmony's posts this very thing. She is constantly saying that polygamy shamed the Church and the members. And where does she get this idea? From "those that were scoffing at them." And she became ashamed.

[_truth dancer]

If they are living the truth they have been given, and the Light of Christ lets them know, they are passing the test.

And how would one know if they are living the truth they are given? Of course by the HG, but we agree that people can misinterpret the witness right? Seems people BELIEVE they are right when according to you they are WRONG. Many believers have strong testimonies that the light of Christ has witnessed of truth but according to the LDS church these folks are wrong, misinterpreting, misunderstanding, or something.

So again, one is left believing/thinking they are living the truth, understanding the witness, or receiving truth when in fact they may not be.

I think many people who will repeatedly say they know they are right, really have doubts about how "right" they are.
If they are denying the truth, if they are figthing the truth, they are failing, and they know it. There is that nudge of doubt in their present course, there are those feelings not of God--hatred,bitterness,anger--which tell them their present course is not right. But their pride will not allow them to admit it. So they find refuge in building arguments about why they have to be right. These are the people who actively fight against the Church.

You do realize that believers of other religions are saying this about LDS right?

I have known many people who have joined the Church, who feel that their previous church and religious experiences were good and helpful to them in their lives. They believe they have received added truth from time to time. Which is the way God works. It is the description, even, of the childhood and youth of the Savior.

And many folks who leave the LDS church can see their time as a believer as having moved them closer to truth. There are those who leave the LDS church for another religion who clearly believe they have found the TRUTH in their new religion, and there are those who leave the LDS church for, what many believe is more light and knowledge.

Again, how is one to really know? Because YOU believe YOU are right doesn't make it so, any more than my EV neighbor who believes SHE is right, is actually right. Right?

I think there are many who have had a witness of the Spirit, who later come to deny that witness. They come to believe they were mistaken. That doesn't mean they were. It only means that they have once had a witness and have lost it.

Are Scientologists who have a witness of the spirit, who later come to deny it, mistaken? How about FLDS? How about JWs? Catholics? EVs?

Step back for a minute and realize that the LDS church is no different than most others in how they view their particular truth. Do you realize that others view the LDS church as you view others?

You can see in harmony's posts this very thing. She is constantly saying that polygamy shamed the Church and the members. And where does she get this idea? From "those that were scoffing at them." And she became ashamed.

So what makes YOUR witness any more true than Harmony's? If Harmony is misinterpreting her witness how would she know? Or if YOU were misinterpreting YOUR witness how would you know?

And again, back to the point, given that many people with conflicting beliefs, believe their witness is true, how is one supposed to know if their witness is wrong, they are not passing the test, or if they are misinterpreting their witness?

~dancer~

[_charity]

And how would one know if they are living the truth they are given? Of course by the HG, but we agree that people can misinterpret the witness right? Seems people BELIEVE they are right when according to you they are WRONG. Many believers have strong testimonies that the light of Christ has witnessed of truth but according to the LDS church these folks are wrong, misinterpreting, misunderstanding, or something.

It isn't our job to know what anyone else's witness is or how they are living it. It is responsibility to life our life to conform to the truth we know.

So again, one is left believing/thinking they are living the truth, understanding the witness, or receiving truth when in fact they may not be.

Everyone is given the Light of Christ. Some people think that is analogous to the conscience. It is an innate sense of right and wrong. A person knows when he/she is going agaisnt it. At least to the point that knwoingly doing something wrong is so common that the Light of Christ "goes out." But this isn't accidental. The person knows when they are going agaisnt this innate sense.

If a person believes they have received a witness and they are doing the best they can to live to it, then they are doing the right thing. If they are sincere enough to be doing this, they will accept further light and knowledge when they encounter it.

I think many people who will repeatedly say they know they are right, really have doubts about how "right" they are.
If they are denying the truth, if they are figthing the truth, they are failing, and they know it. There is that nudge of doubt in their present course, there are those feelings not of God--hatred,bitterness,anger--which tell them their present course is not right. But their pride will not allow them to admit it. So they find refuge in building arguments about why they have to be right. These are the people who actively fight against the Church.

You do realize that believers of other religions are saying this about LDS right?

They can say that if they want, but they are not correct. We don't fight against anyone else or any other church. We don't hand out pamphlets tited "The REAL Truth about the Baptist Cult" or "What Is the Catholic Church Hiding From You." We don't carry signs outside the SBA conventions telling them they are going to hell. Our General Conferences never mention other churches or what they are doing wrong. We don't have Sunday School lessons and revival meetings about other denominations. We teach our own truths to our members.

I have known many people who have joined the Church, who feel that their previous church and religious experiences were good and helpful to them in their lives. They believe they have received added truth from time to time. Which is the way God works. It is the description, even, of the childhood and youth of the Savior.

And many folks who leave the LDS church can see their time as a believer as having moved them closer to truth. There are those who leave the LDS church for another religion who clearly believe they have found the TRUTH in their new religion, and there are those who leave the LDS church for, what many believe is more light and knowledge.

They can think that if they want. If they go on to their new found truths, I have no quarrel with them. If they turn back and rant and rail against the Church, this shows soemthing else is going on.Again, how is one to really know? Because YOU believe YOU are right doesn't make it so, any more than my EV neighbor who believes SHE is right, is actually right. Right?

I think there are many who have had a witness of the Spirit, who later come to deny that witness. They come to believe they were mistaken. That doesn't mean they were. It only means that they have once had a witness and have lost it.

Are Scientologists who have a witness of the spirit, who later come to deny it, mistaken? How about FLDS? How about JWs? Catholics? EVs?

They can if they want. Remmeber, I said, it isn't our place to judge any one else.

Step back for a minute and realize that the LDS church is no different than most others in how they view their particular truth. Do you realize that others view the LDS church as you view others?

God will judge. The fact that there is error doesn't mean that there is not truth. Many mentally ill people have claimed to be Jesus Christ. That doesn't mean there was never a real Jesus.

You can see in harmony's posts this very thing. She is constantly saying that polygamy shamed the Church and the members. And where does she get this idea? From "those that were scoffing at them." And she became ashamed.

So what makes YOUR witness any more true than Harmony's? If Harmony is misinterpreting her witness how would she know? Or if YOU were misinterpreting YOUR witness how would you know?

We know. The Light of Christ tells us. And God will judge.

And again, back to the point, given that many people with conflicting beliefs, believe their witness is true, how is one supposed to know if their witness is wrong, they are not passing the test, or if they are misinterpreting their witness?

TD, I keep giving you the answer. In our hearts, we KNOW. God will judge our hearts and He knows exactly what we know. God will judge with a righteous judgement. We can trust that.

[_truth dancer]

TD, I keep giving you the answer. In our hearts, we KNOW. God will judge our hearts and He knows exactly what we know. God will judge with a righteous judgement. We can trust that.

Actually you have still NOT answered the question at all. You are missing the point. Perhaps I am not clear enough.

You state that one will know truth by the light of Christ, in one's heart, they know. This does not answer the question.

I do not know how to ask it any more clearly than I have, but one more time just in case this helps.

I feel certain there are many people in the world who completely absolutely positively know without a shadow of a doubt that they are following the will of God, obeying ultimate truth, and KNOWING in their heart they are receiving a witness from God/HG/Christ, but in fact their witness opposes what many others could possibly believe is Godly.

So here is the question once again hopefully it is more clear.

If a person has a witness they truly KNOW is from God, how can they tell if it is actually NOT? If they KNOW in their hearts (but are clearly wrong) is there a way they can tell they are actually wrong?

I do not think you are saying that people cannot be wrong are you? Or that people should follow this witness no matter what?

When people truly THINK/BELIEVE/KNOW they are "passing the test" is there a way for them to know if they are not? Or do you not think it is possible? Do you think that if they "know" then they are indeed following God's will for them?

I'm not asking YOU to judge an individual, I'm asking how can anyone judge for themselves if they are right or wrong.

A couple of extreme examples to get the point across:

If a couple of guys had a witness and TRULY KNEW in their hearts they were asked by God to fly a plane into the Twin Towers, is there a way for them to know they are incorrect?

If a father truly believes he is called of God to receive the same test as Abraham, and agrees to kill his child, how can he know he is not actually receiving a message from the HG?

If an EV receives a powerful witness and KNOWS that the Book of Mormon is of Satan and KNOWS God has called her to help get members out of the religion, how can she know this is not the HG witnessing to her?

If a FLDS couple truly KNOWS and has a witness from God that they are to allow their twelve year old daughter to marry a sixty year old prophet with twenty wives is there a way for these parent to know their witness is not of God?

In other words, if people truly believe the light of Christ/HG/God/Divine IS IN FACT witnessing to them, is there a way for them to know if they are wrong, or hearing the wrong voice, or actually misinterpreting?

~dancer~

[_Inconceivable]

Mormons are taught that before they were born, they were the most valiant, righteous and spiritually advanced - truly the upper crust of those that can discern truth from error. His sheep hear His voice. The only thing they think they are sure of, is that they and their children are the chosen listeners.

A little lengthy but, to the point:

3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.
4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.
5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—
6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest—

(Book of Mormon | Alma 13:3 - 6)

When a ding-dong has fallen for this, discussing such concepts as discernment validation with them is futile.