What is Mormonism's Ultimate Punishment?

[_Coggins7]

If "the Holy Ghost unifies people who are tuned in and calibrated to receive his teachings and influence" why are the answers in the poll different?

If you will look again at your own question, you will see that the answer to it is implied therein.

[_Scottie]

And I'm straight,

And single??? ;)

Sorry...carry on...

(don't worry, Liz, you're still my #1 girl)

[_Coggins7]

You just define the problem away. All who agree with your version are unified. The rest are of Satan.
(I smell a tautology).

Its not my version. Its the official and settled doctrine of the Church as elucidated in the D%C. No ambiguity, no vagueness, and no tautology.

The fact is that feeling the spirit or getting a message or confirmation from God or whatever is terrible evidence of anything. One only need to check the rather long and bizarre list of beliefs that are arrived at by private revelation and feelings of spiritual certainty.
I have lots of examples of people telling me that they got information from the Holy Ghost which was proven false later (in one case, only an hour later).

You have, as usual Tarski, nothing...utterly nothing.

[_Jersey Girl]

If "the Holy Ghost unifies people who are tuned in and calibrated to receive his teachings and influence" why are the answers in the poll different?

If you will look again at your own question, you will see that the answer to it is implied therein.

No, it's not. How do you know who has given the correct answer?

[_unwell3398]

It's late (I'm in Boston), and I'm exhausted from a long day, so my answers will be brief and in no doubt will be less than satisfactory. But so were your questions and so called "answers," so we're even.

How are stories bad? Members do it all the time to prove the church is true. Every religion does it, plus I was asked for an example. Experiences and "stories" of individuals don't make them any less true or relevant. Grow up.

Polygamy and polyandry were a few of the ones discarded, along with the Curse of Cain and so forth, which were supposed to be everlasting...that means NO end, not when some old white men declare it. I don't think an all-knowing God changes his mind on that stuff.

And about this: "Pure unexpurgated pap. End of story. Nobody has been taught anything other than what's been in the D&C, the Gospel Doctrine manuals, Seminary manuals, Institute manuals, Priesthood manuals, and Relief Society manuals, and any number of other Church publications. The clear doctrines have been taught by the Brethren since the very beginning." SOOOO..no one has EVER been taught anything than from those references, huh? No personal opinions, no other references, nothing? That's a pretty weak declaration, and all-knowingly sounding...you declaring yourself as above the authorities? Because they've admitted things have been taught wrongly in the past....

Ironic, to say "You have, as usual Tarski, nothing...utterly nothing," because you don't ever answer anything...you just go "no, your stupid, blah blah blah."

I'm going to bed. Night all.

And PS...no, not single, sorry doll! =)

[_Jason Bourne]

Face it Nehor: you have no evidence. Your long-standing, warm 'n' cuddly view of this scripture is incorrect. I'm sure it's deeply troubling for you to know that the Church indicates that any who turn away from the Church will be sent to Outer Darknes, but, well.... There it is.

Certainly an isolated read of the passages about Sons of Perdition may lead to that conclusion. It is also reasonable to conclude that it takes much more than simple apostasy to be subjected to outer darkness. The problem is Scratch, I know of almost nobody in LDS leadership that reaches the conclusion you attempt to here. Typically the teachings about this indicate one must have much more than the typical run of mill testimony. You can reach whatever conclusion you want to but it is interesting that almost nobody reaches that same conclusion.

Here are other relevant passages from Section 76:

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

What does it mean to have the son revealed? Is it a simple testimony or something more. This language seems to indicate something more like a direct revelation.

Regarding those in the Terrestrial world;

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit

Apostates will be in spirit prison and may even receive a testimony in the next life. These qualify for a terrestrial glory. Apostates may have had a testimony but are blinded by the cunning of men and thus are heirs to the terrestrial kingdom. Apostates are not valiant in their testimony and thus are heirs of the terrestrial kingdom.

Seems pretty clear to me. Scratch is simply reaching to an erroneous conclusion here.

[_Mister Scratch]

Face it Nehor: you have no evidence. Your long-standing, warm 'n' cuddly view of this scripture is incorrect. I'm sure it's deeply troubling for you to know that the Church indicates that any who turn away from the Church will be sent to Outer Darknes, but, well.... There it is.

Certainly an isolated read of the passages about Sons of Perdition may lead to that conclusion. It is also reasonable to conclude that it takes much more than simple apostasy to be subjected to outer darkness. The problem is Scratch, I know of almost nobody in LDS leadership that reaches the conclusion you attempt to here. Typically the teachings about this indicate one must have much more than the typical run of mill testimony. You can reach whatever conclusion you want to but it is interesting that almost nobody reaches that same conclusion.

The fact that "almost nobody reaches that same conclusion" seems irrelevant. Very few people within "LDS leadership" teach anything about blood atonement, polygamy, polyandry, MMM, or any number of unpleasant/embarrassing things. Further, how would you characterize something which is "much more than the typical run of mill testimony"? Are you saying that only a very small percentage of the upper-echelon GAs run the risk of being sent to Outer Darkness?

Here are other relevant passages from Section 76:

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

What does it mean to have the son revealed? Is it a simple testimony or something more. This language seems to indicate something more like a direct revelation.

Regarding those in the Terrestrial world;

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit

Apostates will be in spirit prison and may even receive a testimony in the next life.

But where do you see mention of apostates or apostasy in the above verses? So far as I can tell, this passage is discussing people who simply were never believers in Christ to begin with, or folks who never joined the Church. (I take "blinded by the craftiness of men" to refer to materialist thinking---"man-made" things, money, pleasure of the physical world, etc.)

These qualify for a terrestrial glory. Apostates may have had a testimony but are blinded by the cunning of men and thus are heirs to the terrestrial kingdom.

But, Jason, the passage does not justify this reading. The verse says they "received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it." I think the best reading of this line is, "They didn't join the Church while they were alive." I gather that you are interpreting it to mean, "The didn't receive the 2nd Comforter", or, "They didn't meet with Jesus face-to-face while they were alive." The other bits of the passage further suggest that your reading is incorrect, insofar as it mentions that these people did not receive the "fulness" of the Gospel.

Apostates are not valiant in their testimony and thus are heirs of the terrestrial kingdom.

No. Apostates, who have been a party to the "fulness" of the Gospel, and who are familiar with the teachings of the Church, will be cast into Outer Darkness, due to their denial of this fullness. You can, of course, opt to continue reading the scripture erroneously, but in the end the overall evidence just doesn't support your interpretation.

Seems pretty clear to me. Scratch is simply reaching to an erroneous conclusion here.

No, I just favor the most accurate reading. It seems to me that you, Nehor, and others are terrified that this is the actual doctrine.

[_antishock8]

Guess which poster is the most like Mo Jo JoJo?



How about stupid? Yes, thanks to your foolishness, you will be reduced to nothing. Nothing! Like the amount of intelligence inside your head. Nothing! Like the amount of respect I get after I get to heaven! Oh you are so LAME. You will PAY for your use of inappropriate dialogue. That's all just well enough, because in reality there is only room enough on this board for one TRUE intellecutal! One shall be the number of Me's on this board, and the number of Me's on the baord shall be one. Two Me's is too many, and three is right out. So the only Me there is room for on the board shall be ME! Foolish anti-Mormons.

[_Jason Bourne]

Scratch

I am not terrified of the doctrine. Not at all. I think you have it wrong and yes the fact that NOBODY in LDS leadership has come to your conclusion is telling. You can conclude I am in error. But I think the conclusion of those who know and may believe the passages have much more meaning then your conclusion. That said you may be right. As noted, I do recall one 19the century leader stating that some of those close the Joseph Smith that apostatized would be SoPs. And I do not recall who said that.

Yet somehow I am suspicious that this is agenda driven and an attempt to put another arrow in your quiver to argue that LDS view apostates as worse than murderers and adulterers.

So we will just have to agree to disagree. You think you are correct. I do not. I think my interpretation as well as almost ALL LDS and LDS leaders means much more then your single conclusion. But hey,that is just me.

Carry on my wayward son!

[_moksha]

Nehor seems to think not, and (apparently) to think that banishment to Outer Darkness can only happen to very high-ranking GAs who've seen Jesus in the flesh.

GA's have been seeing Jesus?