DDT Posts Split from Outing Anonymous Posters Thread

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

No! That is one of the worst places to go if you want an unbiased view of science.
That site is just an anti-environmental, right wing rag. Basically, something is pegged as junk science if it inconveniences big business, is championed by anyone precieved to be liberal, or if it just sounds like something "liberals" would care about.
They have the balls to call the opinions of the majority of climate and earth scientists at the best universities "junk science".


Translation: its not politically correct, and it doesn't fit the leftist eco-collapse template, the last great white hope of Socialism and coercive statism in the late 20th and early 21st century, so ignore it.


In a February 6, 2006 article entitled "Smoked Out: Pundit for Hire", Paul D. Thacker of The New Republic reported that non-profit organizations operated by Fox News "Junk Science" commentator Steven Milloy from his home had received money from ExxonMobil while Milloy attacked research on global warming.[9] Thacker also noted that Milloy was receiving almost $100,000 a year in consulting fees from Philip Morris while he criticized the evidence regarding the hazards of second-hand smoke as "junk science"."


The ad hominem circumstantial, the first and only refuge of the left wing pantheists, chemicophobes, Neo-Primitivists, Marxists and Neo-Communists everywhere. Who funds who has little merit as a critique unless an actual biasing effect can be shown: that is, if it can be shown that the organization in question that accepted the funds weren't' philosophically and scientifically opposed to environmentalism in the first place. If I were Fred Singer or Milnoy, I'd accept a big fat check from Exxon in a heartbeat, just as fast as the Sierra Club would accept a check from the Ford Foundation, RealNetworks, Bill Gates, or The Tides Foundation, The Open Society Institute, or any number of deep pocketed leftist funding sources (including the federal government). Check out Capital Research Center and take a good long look at the corporate support for radical environmental groups, and then take a look at the disproportionate giving to left wing groups by corporate America. Tarski doesn't have a logical, evidential, or fact based argument in support of the environmental position. No left wing environmentalist does. All they have is to endlessly point out corporate funding sources (without mentioning their own interesting sources, many of them corporate) and show that some corporations support research done by groups opposed to anti-capitalist, anti-growth, anti-democratic leftist organizations, as if they shouldn't and as if the very fact of their doing so is suspect (be careful; people like Tarski don't like capitalism, property rights, and free markets as a matter of principle; it has little to do with science in any event). None of this will be compelling, in any case, to someone who does not hold a preexisting bias against corporations as somehow inherently evil.

The American Left has huge corporate supporters, and of even more significance is the foundation and 517 support for the American left, which bear more than passing similarity to what could only be described as money laundering schemes. Also left out are the large sums of government money that fund most AGW research today. This is important because this is very interested money. Exxon is a legitimate company that employs countless thousands of people at high wages and supports the economic progress and industrial growth of this country, and they have a perfectly legitimate and above board reason to fund researchers who they know are interested in debunking environmentalist pseudo science. Why? Because they don't want to be economically destroyed. Clever eh?

Here's the Sierra Club's grant history. Who needs corporations when you can get money from the Foundation babies, who produce nothing but siphon funds to groups seeking the destruction of those who do?

http://www.capitalresearch.org/search/o ... org=SIC104

This is also interesting:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... 0164/print

As is this:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Pr ... ED65397BB9

And this:

http://www.marshall.org/article.php?id=17

and:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/36208.html

http://www.sepp.org/Archive/Industry%20 ... envir.html


Environmentalism and its holy sacrement, AGW, is not science: it is ideology, which is why it is so resistant to science itself.


A site written by scientists would be http://www.realclimate.org/


Realclimate does have real scientists involved in its activities, as does Junkscience.com, CEI, CATO, SEPP, CO2 Science, and many other skeptical organizations. Realclimate, however, as long as Tarski insists on a battle of the sources and ad hominems in lier of argument, is a front for Michael Mann, who had his tendentious "hockey stick" graph, that undid the empirically known MWP and LIA and made the 20the century look warmer than that last thousand years combined, scientifically discredited before the world and sent packing. His refusal to share much of his data with other researchers, a unusually common tactic among global warming advocates it seems, also sent his contribution to the IPCC spinning into a nose dive.

Realclimate is a last ditch effort at salvaging a concept that, for all intents and purposes, is already dead. The empirics have just snowballed (no pun intended) against it to heavily in recent years. The GCMs are discredited, period, as useful models for predicting future climate change. None of the observational evidence supports the AGW thesis, not even in the most minor details.


Oh, and blame malaria on liberals? HA ha ha haha .....what a laugh.


Its no laughing matter to the thirty million people, mostly children, who died needlessly because of angst and ennui ridden westerner's ideological fixations, something they picked up as they left serious religion and serious liberal arts education behind, beginning in the late sixties.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

Coggins7 wrote:Translation: its not politically correct, and it doesn't fit the leftist eco-collapse template, the last great white hope of Socialism and coercive statism in the late 20th and early 21st century, so ignore it.

You're just tragically wrong and frankly, more than a bit loony.

What do you think? That, man can do as he freaking pleases and the eco-system is immune because your (imaginary) God designed it for our specific use and it is indestructable? Or maybe you think Jesus will show up soon and clean it all up anyway (in every generation christians always say he will show up in about 50 years).

By the way, we all know there is tons of right-wing anti-science conspiracy theory BS on the web. Do you think cutting and pasting massive amounts or listing tons of links constitutes an argument? You may as well, pile on the links to prove to me that aliens crashed in Roswell.

Hey, here is an idea: Take a representative sample of peer reviewed actually published research to make your points if you can. Don't cherry pick--give the consensus and what is found in the best scientific journals!
Otherwise you prove yourself to be a fringe nut.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Coggins7 wrote:
Moniker wrote:Well, I don't know enough about it (but rest assured I'll be reading up on it tonight:) yet, it appears to me that when you kill them off in vast quantities that there will be some that survive. Those that survive will pass on the resistance and then it will no longer be effective again... Didn't malaria become resistant to the drugs that were being used to treat it as well? Seems like a mess.... I just think it's probably a bit more complex than blaming merely the environmentalists.



No Moniker...the aversion effect has never diminished, which is why WHO supported the reintroduction of spraying programs. The Web is full of African websites run by private organizations and governments to lift fully the ban on spraying. As to the environmentalists, it was they and they alone who produced the ban. Rickelshaus, for his part, flatly defied the evidence of a lengthy EPA hearings in which the scientific evidence was overwhelmingly shown to be in favor of continuing the spraying program. But Rickelshaus was beholden to the Environmental Defense Fund, a nascent radical green group ideologically opposed to DDT use. He sided with them.

Here's a good place to begin your reading

http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.html


The aversion effect merely keeps them out of homes. And as far as I was aware that never really stopped. Did it? I read last night that it's been going on for quite a while and wasn't banned from agriculture use either. Yet, you mentioned earlier that we needed to "kill them in vast quantities". So, you're the one that brought that up. That is what happened the first time about and then they came back with a vengeance since they became resistant to the DDT.

Soooo, that link you provided me wasn't very helpful... :)

I did look on some other sites to get a clearer picture and it actually was difficult for me to find a lot of information on it that didn't seem tinged with ideology -- which is RIDICULOUS!

Why hasn't a mod split off the DDT posts???
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Tarski wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:
Here's a good place to begin your reading

http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.html


No! That is one of the worst places to go if you want an unbiased view of science.
That site is just an anti-environmental, right wing rag. Basically, something is pegged as junk science if it inconveniences big business, is championed by anyone precieved to be liberal, or if it just sounds like something "liberals" would care about.
They have the balls to call the opinions of the majority of climate and earth scientists at the best universities "junk science".

"Edward Herman reported that from 1996 to 1998, there were 8 articles in the mainstream media labeling criticism of corporations or tort claims 'junk science' for every 1 article labeling research sponsored by corporations as such.[12]

In a February 6, 2006 article entitled "Smoked Out: Pundit for Hire", Paul D. Thacker of The New Republic reported that non-profit organizations operated by Fox News "Junk Science" commentator Steven Milloy from his home had received money from ExxonMobil while Milloy attacked research on global warming.[9] Thacker also noted that Milloy was receiving almost $100,000 a year in consulting fees from Philip Morris while he criticized the evidence regarding the hazards of second-hand smoke as "junk science"."



Take a look at Coggin's crazy Limbaugh-esque rhetoric and you can see he has been on a steady diet of this stuff for a long time.

A site written by scientists would be http://www.realclimate.org/

Oh, and blame malaria on liberals? HA ha ha haha .....what a laugh.


Oh! I wish I'd seen this post before I wasted my time perusing that site..... Oops! :)
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

What do you think? That, man can do as he freaking pleases and the eco-system is immune because your (imaginary) God designed it for our specific use and it is indestructable? Or maybe you think Jesus will show up soon and clean it all up anyway (in every generation christians always say he will show up in about 50 years).


Watching you self destruct intellectually can be amusing on certain occasions Tarski, it really can. Like so many environmental cultists, you quite clearly cannot differentiate between science and your own quasi-religious beliefs about nature.


By the way, we all know there is tons of right-wing anti-science conspiracy theory BS on the web. Do you think cutting and pasting massive amounts or listing tons of links constitutes an argument? You may as well, pile on the links to prove to me that aliens crashed in Roswell.


No, its called reading, a.k.a., homework. Robert Balling, Fred Singer, Richard Lindzen, Chris Landsea, Tim Ball, and thousands of other earth scientists, mathematicians, statisticians, and physicists, proponents of Roswell-like theories? Come now...


Hey, here is an idea: Take a representative sample of peer reviewed actually published research to make your points if you can. Don't cherry pick--give the consensus and what is found in the best scientific journals!
Otherwise you prove yourself to be a fringe nut.


I don't time for that, nor will you or any other of our fundamentalist Pantheists accept the naked truth of empirical climate science. You will stay with your already discredited GCM's until the very end, in the name of ideological purity, regardless of what nature is really telling us. C02 Science is probably the best source on the Web, and its positions are derived soley from peer reviewed literature.
Prof. David H. Douglass, Prof. John R. Christy , Benjamin D. Pearson, and Prof. S. Fred Singer have just published a peer reviewed article in the December 2007 issue of the International Journal of Climatology of the Royal Meteorological Society [DOI: 10.1002/joc.1651], essentially falsifying the major components of AGW. Further, The Heartland Institute has just conclude sponsorship of the Nongovernmental International Panel on Climate Change, held in New York, and featuring a roster of well published scientists independent of the ideological atmosphere of the IPCC and the U.S. Federal government.

AGW is going to die a well deserved death, oh, I predict, within the next couple of years at the very most. It will live on in the media, and in the environmental movement, but its been dying it the literature for years, across a number of allied disciplines (not just Climatology per se), and the empirics are now cascading against it.

Global warming essentially ceased around 1998, and all four of the major global temperature tracking outlets, including Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, and RSS have recently released new data showing a substantial drop in global temperatures over the last year, enough, in fact (0.65C up to 0.75C) to wipe out almost all the global warming experienced during the last century. This is the single fastest drop int world temperature ever recorded.

Your leftist ideological need for AGW to be true may never budge an inch, but those who value truth over hubris and fantasies of social transformation will move on.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

The aversion effect merely keeps them out of homes. And as far as I was aware that never really stopped. Did it? I read last night that it's been going on for quite a while and wasn't banned from agriculture use either. Yet, you mentioned earlier that we needed to "kill them in vast quantities". So, you're the one that brought that up. That is what happened the first time about and then they came back with a vengeance since they became resistant to the DDT.


They didn't come back because they were resistant. I'll let some of the experts speak for themselves.

http://www.junkscience.com/july07/basu-ddt.htm

A wealth of information is here:

http://www.malaria.org/DDTpage.html

And..

http://www.junkscience.com/july00/averys.html

DDT was never officially banned in Africa, but as Wikipedia points out:

However, the fact that DDT is not formally banned in developing nations does not necessarily mean that those nations have the option to use it. Developing nations are typically heavily dependent on aid from agencies that made the aid contingent upon non-usage of DDT. The British Medical Journal of March 11, 2000, reports that the use of DDT in Mozambique "was stopped several decades ago, because 80% of the country's health budget came from donor funds, and donors refused to allow the use of DDT."[97] Many African nations have been dissuaded from to using DDT in part because the European Union has said that their agricultural exports may not be accepted if spraying was "widespread."[98]


Further, the bans, official and unofficial, went into effect some ten years before resistance began to show up.

Environmental hysteria, not resistance, was the driver of the ban, and the fact that malaria came back with a vengeance in precisely those countries who stopped using it for vector control, is quite telling. Agricultural use has no vector control usage.

Mosquitoes didn't come back with a "vengeance" because they became resistant. As you will see especially at the Malaria Foundation website, vector control is about aversion, not killing. When spraying stopped, biting returned, and millions ended up dead and crippled who needn't have been.

I did look on some other sites to get a clearer picture and it actually was difficult for me to find a lot of information on it that didn't seem tinged with ideology -- which is RIDICULOUS!


Well, welcome to the post sixties western world. AGW presents with the same features. DDT is another scientific or medical issue that the Left heavily politicized decades ago because environmentalism, whatever its other attractions, is, and always has been, understood to be a irresistible Camel's nose in the tent for Socialism. It is also a place of worship, penitence, and expiation for guilty, angst ridden Boomers and their progeny who have left serious religion behind but yet still feel a deep need to worship and atone for sin. Modern righteousness is uniquely public righteousness, manifested in partaking of and supporting the proper causes.

As I've said before, we moderns can afford to be concerned about the slightest tinge of toxins in our food, water, or air, in the many parts per million or parts per billion, because our seemingly endless prosperity, affluence, and leisure have convinced us that it is out birthright (there also being no existence beyond this world and no intrinsic values in the universe) to be free, not only from want, discomfort, and insecurity, but from impurity. Not impurity of the heart, of course, but environmental impurity, which might compromise our continued affluence, comfort, and culture of material indulgence (by, of course, compromising our health).

Hence, while 99% of the pesticides you and I will ever ingest in our lifetimes are naturally present within the vegetables we eat, our culture frets, fumes, and descends into national histrionics over the most vanishingly small residues of human manufactured pesticides on our apples and Celery.

Well, that's just warming up.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

(Moderator Note) Split by Liz
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

I'll look over those links. I was just looking over the malaria foundation website. Yet, I don't really (still) understand why DDT discussion is in this thread...

Coggins7 wrote:Well, welcome to the post sixties western world. AGW presents with the same features. DDT is another scientific or medical issue that the Left heavily politicized decades ago because environmentalism, whatever its other attractions, is, and always has been, understood to be a irresistible Camel's nose in the tent for Socialism. It is also a place of worship, penitence, and expiation for guilty, angst ridden Boomers and their progeny who have left serious religion behind but yet still feel a deep need to worship and atone for sin. Modern righteousness is uniquely public righteousness, manifested in partaking of and supporting the proper causes.


I would imagine that people support causes that are meaningful to them. I am active in social causes because I'm concerned for our world and the world my children and grandchildren will have. My parents are older than the baby boomers (late 60's) so I guess I don't fit into the above description. ;)

As I've said before, we moderns can afford to be concerned about the slightest tinge of toxins in our food, water, or air, in the many parts per million or parts per billion, because our seemingly endless prosperity, affluence, and leisure have convinced us that it is out birthright (there also being no existence beyond this world and no intrinsic values in the universe) to be free, not only from want, discomfort, and insecurity, but from impurity. Not impurity of the heart, of course, but environmental impurity, which might compromise our continued affluence, comfort, and culture of material indulgence (by, of course, compromising our health).


I have no idea what you just wrote above. Are you really linking atheism with the environmentalist's concerns? Seems to me that those that DO believe that this earth is all we have would understand the urgent need to protect what resources we have. That's certainly the case with me. I don't think there's a God watching us and understand that it is just the humans on this planet that must protect it for future generations.

Hence, while 99% of the pesticides you and I will ever ingest in our lifetimes are naturally present within the vegetables we eat, our culture frets, fumes, and descends into national histrionics over the most vanishingly small residues of human manufactured pesticides on our apples and Celery.

Well, that's just warming up.


I live fairly close (about 15 miles) to a chemical plant. Our county has a sharp spike of cancer. MUCH higher percentage of people get cancer in this county than the surrounding. People are hysterical about it and have been for a few years. About 2 years ago everyone got a letter in the mail informing us there were cancer causing toxins in our water supply and had been for QUITE a while -- joy! I had a friend get brain cancer about 6 years back and she passed away -- she was in her early 30's. One of my ONLY really good friends died the same day my youngest son was born. She was diagnosed and was dead within 2 weeks. It's our lives. It is our children. I want to know what is being put into my body, my, children and my neighbors. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask questions and be concerned. I don't pretend to know much about toxins or understand the science. Yet, I DO know that if something is making people ill and they are dying that it would be foolish for me to not hold those accountable that are responsible for this.

I ALSO know that I trust scientists that are the ones that research global warming, toxins, epidemics, etc... It's their world too and they're more capable than I of determining what should be done. The politics should take a step back and let those that are in the field actually do what needs to be done, imho.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

(Moderator Note)

Moved Moniker's latest DDT response from other thread and deleted post there. Please keep DDT discussions to this thread. Thanks!

_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Ha! I moved it too. :)
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