dart-marg-JAK

[_Jersey Girl]

I've stated on this board at least once that I won't intervene in any thread on which I am a participant. The three of you are interrupting my participation on the Celestial Forum "Evidence for Jesus" thread by having to hunt down other moderator's to review comments and render a decision on them. How many people and how much of their time, do you require to bring the three of you in line with the forum description?

dart: The personal remarks you are making are non-Celestial.

marg: The assertions such as those directed at dartagnan shouldn't require someone else (like me) to use the search engine to verify the claim which as it turns out, is in error.

JAK: Piggy backing someone else's claim (marg's claim directed at dart) without researching it, bogs down the thread in spending time to sort it out.

I and the other moderator's actually do come here to participate. Knock it off.

Jersey Girl

[_dartagnan]

Don't drag me into his mess as if I am guilty of something.

He is still accusing me of lying. He started this crap, not me. I simply defended myself in light of his baseless accusations.

You know for a fact that I'm not lying. You even said it.

So be a good moderator and reprimand the guy who is picking a fight. You know it isn't me.

I think I have been extremely charitable towards JAK given the weight of the accusation against me, and the obvious falsehood it entails.

[_Jersey Girl]

Don't drag me into his mess as if I am guilty of something.

He is still accusing me of lying. He started this crap, not me. I simply defended myself in light of his baseless accusations.

You know for a fact that I'm not lying. You even said it.

So be a good moderator and reprimand the guy who is picking a fight. You know it isn't me.

I think I have been extremely charitable towards JAK given the weight of the accusation against me, and the obvious falsehood it entails.

I wrote this in the OP that you are replying to:

"I've stated on this board at least once that I won't intervene in any thread on which I am a participant."

I didn't change my mind from the time I wrote the OP to 9 minutes later when you replied to it.

[_Yoda]

OK, guys...I stepped in. I moved the thread to the Terrestrial Forum. Since there were so many issues where the line was being pushed, I just went ahead and moved it.

I left a shadow link in Celestial.

If anyone has any questions, you can PM me.

[_marg]

I've stated on this board at least once that I won't intervene in any thread on which I am a participant. The three of you are interrupting my participation on the Celestial Forum "Evidence for Jesus" thread by having to hunt down other moderator's to review comments and render a decision on them. How many people and how much of their time, do you require to bring the three of you in line with the forum description?

You certainly are intervening..you are going behind the scenes and manipulating. Listen to you ..you're having to hunt down moderators to intervene? Give me a break. No one was preventing you from arguing/discussing ..you were asked questions which addressed your posts and your response was silence. I don't think you are even reading the posts. by the way, now that I'm not posting there and JAK's away and no one is preventing you, you can go back to all those posts that you want to address that you were supposedly prevented from responding to.

dart: The personal remarks you are making are non-Celestial.

marg: The assertions such as those directed at dartagnan shouldn't require someone else (like me) to use the search engine to verify the claim which as it turns out, is in error.

What is that supposed to mean? If I thought he said something ..I thought he said something. “F” off with your stupidity.

JAK: Piggy backing someone else's claim (marg's claim directed at dart) without researching it, bogs down the thread in spending time to sort it out.
I and the other moderator's actually do come here to participate. Knock it off.

You come to participate alright ..you come to connive and manipulate behind the scenes, which you blatantly have acknowledged. No one stopped you from responding, no one asked you to go searching for anything. Mind your own business and here's a thought, post your opinion on the subject, your thoughts and leave others to handle their own. You haven't changed Jersey Girl. Now I remember why I dislike you.

[_Yoda]

You certainly are intervening..you are going behind the scenes and manipulating.

Um, no. If she was going behind the scenes and manipulating, she wouldn't be blatantly stating here what her issues are.

Jersey Girl has NOT intervened in this thread because she is an active participant. Frankly, I think that is an ethical position. She asked the other Moderators to take a look at it. I was the first one to review it, so continue your bitch with me, not with Jersey Girl.

And, for what it's worth, Marg, your precious thread has been moved back to the Celestial Forum. I honored Richard's request, as the originator of the thread.

Nothing has been split off. Everything is intact, so, please, by all means, be my guest to have at it.

Much to your relief, I'm sure, I will no longer have anything to do with that thread. Any further action taken will be another Moderator's headache.

[_Sam Harris]

Woosah, mighty princess! Back to your sabbatical with you!

[_Mercury]

situations like this are exactly why I was uncomfortable with Jersey taking modship. Too much drama.

Grow up Jersey.

[_Yoda]

situations like this are exactly why I was uncomfortable with Jersey taking modship. Too much drama.

Grow up Jersey.

?????

Jersey Girl didn't cause the drama here, Merc.

[_Jersey Girl]

I've stated on this board at least once that I won't intervene in any thread on which I am a participant. The three of you are interrupting my participation on the Celestial Forum "Evidence for Jesus" thread by having to hunt down other moderator's to review comments and render a decision on them. How many people and how much of their time, do you require to bring the three of you in line with the forum description?

You certainly are intervening..you are going behind the scenes and manipulating. Listen to you ..you're having to hunt down moderators to intervene? Give me a break. No one was preventing you from arguing/discussing ..you were asked questions which addressed your posts and your response was silence. I don't think you are even reading the posts. by the way, now that I'm not posting there and JAK's away and no one is preventing you, you can go back to all those posts that you want to address that you were supposedly prevented from responding to.

dart: The personal remarks you are making are non-Celestial.

marg: The assertions such as those directed at dartagnan shouldn't require someone else (like me) to use the search engine to verify the claim which as it turns out, is in error.

What is that supposed to mean? If I thought he said something ..I thought he said something. f*** off with your stupidity.

JAK: Piggy backing someone else's claim (marg's claim directed at dart) without researching it, bogs down the thread in spending time to sort it out.
I and the other moderator's actually do come here to participate. Knock it off.

You come to participate alright ..you come to connive and manipulate behind the scenes, which you blatantly have acknowledged. No one stopped you from responding, no one asked you to go searching for anything. Mind your own business and here's a thought, post your opinion on the subject, your thoughts and leave others to handle their own. You haven't changed Jersey Girl. Now I remember why I dislike you.

Let's take a look at your logic here, marg.

In your first post to Liz on the Evidence thread you stated:

"Thanks Liz for screwing things up. Kevin I'm out of this thread. I'm not going to put in the time, any research ..only to participate in a free for all thread with fallacious argumentation allowed."

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 774#136774

In your next reply to Liz you stated in part:

"I see. so instead of moderators telling participants to knock it off which by the way...was only once, you decided to move it so that the bickering can increase and moderators don't have to step in. So rather than trying to ensure fallacious argumentation is prevented you actually are encouraging it. "
http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 813#136813

In response to Liz's suggestion that you PM Shades you stated:

"Poor Shades shouldn't have to be involved. "
http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 813#136813

When Shades replied as follows:

"[MODERATOR NOTE: Just a friendly reminder, but it's possible for an argument to be "fallacious" and "Celestial" at the same time. The forums are divided by tone and politeness, not rightness/wrongness.

So don't worry about fallacious arguments staying in the Celestial Forum for so long.]"
http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 813#136813

You responded with the following:

"Well Shades if the purpose of the Celestial is to enable threads to evolve productively without dishonest tactics of things like attacking people in order to shift focus away from subjecti, then moving them to Terrestial where rules are more lax, is not gong to accomplish that objective, the opposite will be accomplished.

If you would like to step in here, kindly explain to me where you see justification for moving this thread, and what that would accomplish."
http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 821#136821

And Shades responded to you as follows:

Well Shades if the purpose of the Celestial is to enable threads to evolve productively without dishonest tactics of things like attacking people in order to shift focus away from subjecti, then moving them to Terrestial where rules are more lax, is not gong to accomplish that objective, the opposite will be accomplished.

"I think you're referring to the mode of argumentation/discussion that dartagnan took. . . right?

If so, then it would've perhaps been nice if he had addressed only the specific things with which he disagreed instead of assessing the motives of the people making them--I won't argue with that. Kevin, if you could be a little more circumspect in that regard while in the Celestial Forum, that'd be great.

At the same time, however, he didn't call anyone an idiot or say that anyone was stupid. He didn't say "damn," "hell," etc. either. So although his tone may have been borderline, it didn't cross the edge. So that was the state of the "letter" of the law.

Regarding the "spirit" of the law, the tone of argumentation was a little rougher than what you'd expect to see between a grandchild and his or her beloved grandmother--this giving it a Terrestrial "feel." ALSO, even though I wasn't the one who moved it, there were so many complaints about the thread that I think it would be better suited for here anyway."

If you would like to step in here, kindly explain to me where you see justification for moving this thread, and what that would accomplish.

"I considered splitting off some of Kevin's posts, but then the context of his remarks would've been lost, to the detriment of the conversation, methinks. Although people participating in the thread may have been aggravated with it, from an outsider's perspective (like mine), it was easier to learn things from it by leaving everyone's comments intact.

In the end, it was a judgment call. Every judgment call is going to be subjective to some degree or other, and someone is going to be dissatisfied with it, no matter what it is.

So just roll with the punches and realize that any research you post here will likely benefit others reading it if not the people with whom you're directly conversing."
http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?p=136834#136834

And you didn't reply again on the thread.

Now, let's make some comparisons between what you stated in your exchanges with Liz and Shades and the accusations you've leveled at me.

This is your statement to Liz:
"so instead of moderators telling participants to knock it off which by the way...was only once, you decided to move it so that the bickering can increase and moderators don't have to step in. So rather than trying to ensure fallacious argumentation is prevented you actually are encouraging it."

This is your description of me:

"You certainly are intervening..you are going behind the scenes and manipulating. Listen to you ..you're having to hunt down moderators to intervene."

So, which is it, marg? You want moderators to offer caution and yet when someone asks a moderator to review the thread, they are "going behind the scenes and manipulating". You want moderators to "ensure that fallacious argumentation is prevented" but you don't want any one to actually report it to a moderator in order that they might take action and if they do, you see that as "going behind the scenes and manipulating". by the way, there were two cautions offered on the thread, not one, and both by "Poor Shades".


In your post to Shades you say this:

"Well Shades if the purpose of the Celestial is to enable threads to evolve productively without dishonest tactics of things like attacking people in order to shift focus away from subjecti, then moving them to Terrestial where rules are more lax, is not gong to accomplish that objective, the opposite will be accomplished. "

And when the thread was moved back up to the Celestial in response to the thread starter's expressed wishes, you now decide you don't want to participate. It's okay with me if you choose not to participate there however, don't you think that when you claim to abhor dishonest tactics, you might take a moment to review your own posts, the preferences you have expressed, acknowledge that those preferences were indeed acted upon (cautions offered) and instead of attempting to call into question the integrity of one who has seen fit to ask other moderators to review the instances of possible infraction of form guidelines and that results in the very type of action you have expressed a desire to see happen, you might for a single second realize that you're barking up the wrong tree with your character attacks in lieu of well reasoned evaluation?

I suppose not.

You see, marg, you claim to want moderator support and when you get it you devolve into the very ad hom's you claim to deplore. Pick a spot and land on it, marg.



Jersey Girl