dart-marg-JAK

[_marg]

I am heading out and have no more than a few minutes.
I've looked at your response Jersey Girl and see everything is about you, that is the Jersey Girl I know. Not one issue I brought up regarding moderation has been addressed. Not one from what I can see.

Don't tell me, you are going to see this through but then all you want to do is talk about you. I'm not interested.

[_Jersey Girl]

I am heading out and have no more than a few minutes.
I've looked at your response Jersey Girl and see everything is about you, that is the Jersey Girl I know. Not one issue I brought up regarding moderation has been addressed. Not one from what I can see.

Don't tell me, you are going to see this through but then all you want to do is talk about you. I'm not interested.

It's not about "me" and I won't accept that as an excuse for your lack of response to the issues that I raised.

Now, if you are thinking (which I highly doubt) of the portion of my post that deals with your "manipulation and conniving" accusations, I suppose you expect me to simply sit here and suck in your baseless claims without response and that's not gonna happen, lady.

Not one issue I brought up regarding moderation has been addressed. Not one from what I can see.

Then try reading the post before you comment on it.

[_Jersey Girl]

Let's take a look at your "reasoning" skills.

Here are your "memories":

"And I have years of memories of you not offering much in the way of addressing actual issues in a discussion but instead being a s*** disturber and shifting the topic away from issues typically onto you."

Here is my response to your "memories":

"Now, a few random comments. You stated in a previous post that you have memories of me being a s*** disturber and shifting focus on to myself.

Were your memory at all accurate, you'd have memories of me being attacked by a s*** disturber for years on end. I make it a habit never to fire the first shot. I do however, almost always return fire when the situation warrants it. As for your claims of manipulation and conniving.I'll tell you what, on the other board there was definitely manipulation and conniving going on and not a damn bit of it was coming from me. This board isn't that board. This board is run by people of integrity who have the back bone to make a damn decision. So either you like open season on people or you will appreciate the job the moderators do on this board to make participation possible for a diverse community. Whether you agree with their decisions or not, at least they're on it."

And now you come up with this:

"I've looked at your response Jersey Girl and see everything is about you, that is the Jersey Girl I know. Not one issue I brought up regarding moderation has been addressed. Not one from what I can see.

Don't tell me, you are going to see this through but then all you want to do is talk about you. I'm not interested."

Really? Yes, marg, I pulled the "memories" and "manipulating and conniving" remark straight out of thin air. No wait, let us think for a moment.

You accused me of being "manipulating and conniving."
You stated your "memories".

I responded to both and suddenly it's "all you want to do is talk about you".

Right. Got it.

And where are my manners? Thank you for so richly demonstrating just exactly what I stated when I wrote:

"Were your memory at all accurate, you'd have memories of me being attacked by a s*** disturber for years on end. I make it a habit never to fire the first shot. I do however, almost always return fire when the situation warrants it. "

I couldn't have asked for a finer demonstration than your conduct and assessments on this thread.

So here is your "reasoning", "logic" and might I add, your "intellectual honesty":

1. marg levels ad hom
2. Jersey Girl responds to it
3. Jersey Girl is shifting focus on to Jersey Girl

Wow. That reasoning, logic and intellectual honesty stuff you keep preaching has really gotta hurt your head!

[_Sam Harris]

I am heading out and have no more than a few minutes.
I've looked at your response Jersey Girl and see everything is about you, that is the Jersey Girl I know. Not one issue I brought up regarding moderation has been addressed. Not one from what I can see.

Don't tell me, you are going to see this through but then all you want to do is talk about you. I'm not interested.

Why don't you stop being a snarky little bitch and thinking that your endless rants are actually educated discussion? And no, I'm not speaking as a mod, I'm speaking as someone who really doesn't have much patience for Your Grace. To me, an educated discussion comes to a point, has a conclusion, and though not all parties may agree, there is a general point reached. You just type because apparently your fingers mirror that restless mind...and I guess no one else on your side of cyberspace is listening to Her Grace, so we here have to suffer.

So, now that my rant is over, let me back out of your presence, because I wouldn't dare turn my face from such blatant wit and intelligence as Marg. My butt has touched the doorknob. I'll exit now.

Jersey Girl didn't do a damn thing. You just didn't have the spotlight for 2 seconds. Who else needs to lose their head, Your Grace?

[_Sam Harris]

Let's take a look at your "reasoning" skills.

Here are your "memories":

"And I have years of memories of you not offering much in the way of addressing actual issues in a discussion but instead being a s*** disturber and shifting the topic away from issues typically onto you."

Here is my response to your "memories":

"Now, a few random comments. You stated in a previous post that you have memories of me being a s*** disturber and shifting focus on to myself.

Were your memory at all accurate, you'd have memories of me being attacked by a s*** disturber for years on end. I make it a habit never to fire the first shot. I do however, almost always return fire when the situation warrants it. As for your claims of manipulation and conniving.I'll tell you what, on the other board there was definitely manipulation and conniving going on and not a damn bit of it was coming from me. This board isn't that board. This board is run by people of integrity who have the back bone to make a damn decision. So either you like open season on people or you will appreciate the job the moderators do on this board to make participation possible for a diverse community. Whether you agree with their decisions or not, at least they're on it."

And now you come up with this:

"I've looked at your response Jersey Girl and see everything is about you, that is the Jersey Girl I know. Not one issue I brought up regarding moderation has been addressed. Not one from what I can see.

Don't tell me, you are going to see this through but then all you want to do is talk about you. I'm not interested."

Really? Yes, marg, I pulled the "memories" and "manipulating and conniving" remark straight out of thin air. No wait, let us think for a moment.

You accused me of being "manipulating and conniving."
You stated your "memories".

I responded to both and suddenly it's "all you want to do is talk about you".

Right. Got it.

And where are my manners? Thank you for so richly demonstrating just exactly what I stated when I wrote:

"Were your memory at all accurate, you'd have memories of me being attacked by a s*** disturber for years on end. I make it a habit never to fire the first shot. I do however, almost always return fire when the situation warrants it. "

I couldn't have asked for a finer demonstration than your conduct and assessments on this thread.

So here is your "reasoning", "logic" and might I add, your "intellectual honesty":

1. marg levels ad hom
2. Jersey Girl responds to it
3. Jersey Girl is shifting focus on to Jersey Girl

Wow. That reasoning, logic and intellectual honesty stuff you keep preaching has really gotta hurt your head!

It must be located in that left pinky that's always proverbially held in the air as she discourses with us little people here on the board. My brain would hurt too, being held aloft like that all the time.

[_marg]

S. H.:

- It must be located in that left pinky that's always proverbially held in the air as she (marg) discourses with us little people here on the board. My brain would hurt too, being held aloft like that all the time.

- Why don't you stop being a snarky little bitch and thinking that your endless rants are actually educated discussion? And no, I'm not speaking as a mod, I'm speaking as someone who really doesn't have much patience for Your Grace. To me, an educated discussion comes to a point, has a conclusion, and though not all parties may agree, there is a general point reached. You just type because apparently your fingers mirror that restless mind...and I guess no one else on your side of cyberspace is listening to Her Grace, so we here have to suffer.

So, now that my rant is over, let me back out of your presence, because I wouldn't dare turn my face from such blatant wit and intelligence as Marg. My butt has touched the doorknob. I'll exit now.

Jersey Girl didn't do a damn thing. You just didn't have the spotlight for 2 seconds. Who else needs to lose their head, Your Grace?

by the way...the recent ad hom posts by S.H. is an example of what happens in more lax forums and the reason Celestial threads should not be moved. She is an example of the reason why I wouldn't bother investing time in a supposed highly moderated thread, only to have it moved to an area where it is open season.

[_marg]

Perhaps I've missed it, but I still don't know what the problem was with the thread. J.G...what did you complain to the moderators about regarding that thread?. Why did you want them to intervene? What did you want them to do? You didn't moderate but as a moderator what would you have done regarding whatever it was you had an issue with?

[_marg]

My comments will be in bold and I'm giving no effort to cleaning up the post to make it more readable than that.

Back up the truck and don't you worry, sis, I'm right here as promised.

What, in your view, should have happened instead of moving the thread to the Terrestrial?

Frankly from the time I posted that Kevin had said "all historians agree Jesus existed" I didn't follow closely the discussion between JAK and Kevin. I'm not aware of a problem with tone, which apparently is the issue. I don't know what that complaint is all about.

If you don't know what the complaint is about, why are you complaining?

J.G, is wasn't me complaining to moderators, it was you.

But if tone is the issue and that needs to be improved then generally ad homs are what need to be curtailed. And the way to handle those is to write a mod warning..indicating they have been noted and it's not acceptable.

And that's exactly what happened, marg. Two cautions were given to Kevin.

Ok fine..I don't have a problem with that. That's good.

If the entire post is just one big personal attack and nothing of substance in it and it's pretty consistent from a person, then probably move it.

And therein lies the problem. I agree with you in principle that entire threads shouldn't be moved to a lower forum because it's a virtual guarantee that the quality of discussion will deteriorate. I've stated that publicly and privately in mod communication. What you fail to understand and Shades pointed this out in one of his public mod comments, it's nearly impossible to do what you're suggesting because the non-Celestial remarks are embedded in topical posts. The only option there would be to edit out remarks from within existing posts and if that's done the next thing we'll have here is people complaining that their posts are being censored or suspecting that their posts will be censored which will in turn, reduce their participation on account of losing faith that the integrity of their posts will be lost. Once you begin editing posts from within, there is no guarantee that someone who is able to do that won't at some point misuse the privilege of moderating. Gawd, I just said privilege. It's a royal pain in the ass to look at a thread and try to determine where to cut, split or move. The thread in question is a prime example of that. Had anyone attempted to move posts out of the thread, the thread itself would have been cannibalized to the point of making the thread incoherent to read. I challenge you to look at that thread and tell me where you yourself would make the splits.

Well I didn't see much of a problem. I don't ask for mod intervention. I only did once after
Shades had gone into an old thread and deleted a few words of JAK's. Generally I just point out when someone is writing ad homs in lieu of substance and if they don't stop I'll discontinue replying to them. If mods can't delete, then a mod note asking someone to refrain is all that can be done. It's quite possible they won't stop. And so what you then have is a forum which can't be moderated effectively as far as curtailing ad homs.

If a person can not post without lacing their posts with attacks on whomever they are conversing with then they shouldn't be posting in the Celestial. When people catch on that gameplaying is not acceptable they will eventually stop. A few ad homs are no big deal, it's when it is pervasive, consistent that sort of thing that the discussion turns into a game by the gameplayer employing them. So anything which curtails them without penalizing the honest participants is the way to go, if one wants to raise the level of discussion and keep it honest.

This has been discussed publicly on the board. What you're suggesting is that people lose the ability to post in the Celestial which is reminiscent of FAIR's pundit forum. I don't know if people can be locked out of a forum or not. You can make that suggestion to Shades and see if it's do-able.

I think that would have to be a very extreme case. I'm not really suggesting that. If there is no way to stop ad homs..then there is no way. If mod warning does nothing, if you can't move posts, if you don't want to delete then there isn't much that can be done. But it is a joke to move it to an area which is more lax just so the thread fits within a particular level. That just doesn't make sense, it doesn't accomplish anything.

I didn't see much ad homs, but then I wasn't looking for them or focussing on it. You guys are the ones complaining of tone, I would have done nothing. But if there were excessive disruptive ad homs then give a warning note to cease.

I haven't complained about the tone so leave me out of it. I infact, made no complaints at all until this thread. Warning notes were given twice on the thread.

Well in the OP you said you had to track down moderators...what for?

Really at this point in time I don't know what the problem was that you had or Liz had. "Tone" tells me little.

I've said nothing about "tone".

So why the need to track down a mod.

As far as the discussion between JAK and Kevin over what.. I said he said, you should let them argue it out. You don't need to do the thinking for others.

How many times have you intervened between Kevin and JAK?

Well Jersey Girl not only did you complain and reprimand but you said they were preventing you from posting and that you had to seek a mod. I've never complained that 2 people arguing was preventing me from expressing my point. You can give your opinion but you went beyond that by saying you also had to seek a mod.

In sub argument tangensts, I would lean towards giving the benefit of doubt and assume someone isn't attempting to be dishonest or disruptive, unless it is blatantly obvious. It is better to err on that side than to interfere when people are attempting to work something out. And it may take many pages, a few days. So what..as long as they aren't personally attacking one another I don't see the problem. As you know with a threaded view, those sorts of sub argument tangents can be ignored by other participants, they don't disrupt a thread. But since that isn't available here, the best thing is to skim those posts if you aren't interested and post/reply to the ones you are interested in.

I have asked for a threaded view option on this board since I got here and prior to that in the first format. Shades is checking that out with keene.

It might solve some things because people can self moderate a little better with threaded and threads are less easily disrupted.

Now, a few random comments. You stated in a previous post that you have memories of me being a s*** disturber and shifting focus on to myself.

Were your memory at all accurate, you'd have memories of me being attacked by a s*** disturber for years on end. I make it a habit never to fire the first shot. I do however, almost always return fire when the situation warrants it. As for your claims of manipulation and conniving. I'll tell you what, on the other board there was definitely manipulation and conniving going on and not a damn bit of it was coming from me. This board isn't that board. This board is run by people of integrity who have the back bone to make a damn decision. So either you like open season on people or you will appreciate the job the moderators do on this board to make participation possible for a diverse community. Whether you agree with their decisions or not, at least they're on it.

Like I said I'm not going to take the Celestial level seriously, if it means threads will get moved. I would hope that people who use excessive ad homs in the Celestial could perhaps be embarrassed into stopping. That is if a mod points it out, it should be somewhat embarrassing.

[_marg]

I am heading out and have no more than a few minutes.
I've looked at your response Jersey Girl and see everything is about you, that is the Jersey Girl I know. Not one issue I brought up regarding moderation has been addressed. Not one from what I can see.

Don't tell me, you are going to see this through but then all you want to do is talk about you. I'm not interested.

It's not about "me" and I won't accept that as an excuse for your lack of response to the issues that I raised.

Now, if you are thinking (which I highly doubt) of the portion of my post that deals with your "manipulation and conniving" accusations, I suppose you expect me to simply sit here and suck in your baseless claims without response and that's not gonna happen, lady.

Not one issue I brought up regarding moderation has been addressed. Not one from what I can see.

Then try reading the post before you comment on it.

Sorry I was literally heading out the door, skimmed the post quickly got near the end and saw you talking about the other board. I see now your response addressed my post. It appears little can be done to moderate the Celestial. The onus is really up to participants. Mods can only warn.

[_marg]

Jersey Girl:

I make it a habit never to fire the first shot. I do however, almost always return fire when the situation warrants it.

Right well guess what ,your opening post was an attack on myself, JAK and Kevin. For myself it was an attack on my integrity, the implication was I'm a liar, that I dishonestly misrepresented Kevin's words.

Your OP:

I've stated on this board at least once that I won't intervene in any thread on which I am a participant. The three of you are interrupting my participation on the Celestial Forum "Evidence for Jesus" thread by having to hunt down other moderator's to review comments and render a decision on them. How many people and how much of their time, do you require to bring the three of you in line with the forum description?

dart: The personal remarks you are making are non-Celestial.

marg: The assertions such as those directed at dartagnan shouldn't require someone else (like me) to use the search engine to verify the claim which as it turns out, is in error.

JAK: Piggy backing someone else's claim (marg's claim directed at dart) without researching it, bogs down the thread in spending time to sort it out.

I and the other moderator's actually do come here to participate. Knock it off.