SHADES-LIZ-JG

[_Jersey Girl]

However in moderating the thread, one or two ad homs is not much of an issue. It's when it is pervasive and persistent. When that happens, I think moving the entire posts of an offending individual and replace their post with a link to where it was moved. In that way their post is kept intact and it can be reviewed but it is not disruptive to the main thread. This would tend to curtail people using ad homs excessively ( I think).

Good. Now take another look at the posts I linked you to. Beginning with JAK's "truthful" post. Read the exchanges and you'll see that in JAK's post there are topical comments. In Kevin's first reply, he shoots back a bit and begins to address the topic. In his next reply, Kevin addresses the topic more fully.

In that series of exchanges (which I'm using as an example) it is near impossible to decide which posts to move. And that, marg, is the nature of splitting off posts in the Celestial. You either choose to split off posts and disrupt the flow of the exchanges, split nothing and expect people to complain about the tone of the exchanges or you move the thread south to the Terrestrial.

Those are the only choices available on this board since editing from within is not an option and certainly not an option that I'd want to see instituted on this board for it opens up yet another can of worms.

You yourself stated that you wouldn't choose to split this particular thread and it wasn't split.

It began in the Terrestrial, was moved to the Celestial, moved back to the Terrestrial for a short period of time and relocated back up to the Celestial as is at the request of the thread starter.

The moderator's did their job on the thread given the options and outcomes they had to choose from. Nothing strange or underhanded was going on. It is what it is.

I also want to add here, incase I haven't stated so previously, that mods aren't permitted to publicly disclose mod requests from individual posters. When you asked why the thread was moved I was, at that point, maintaining

Call coming in...will finish this later.

maintaining confidentiality for Kevin.

[_marg]

In that series of exchanges (which I'm using as an example) it is near impossible to decide which posts to move. And that, marg, is the nature of splitting off posts in the Celestial. You either choose to split off posts and disrupt the flow of the exchanges, split nothing and expect people to complain about the tone of the exchanges or you move the thread south to the Terrestrial.

Those are the only choices available on this board since editing from within is not an option and certainly not an option that I'd want to see instituted on this board for it opens up yet another can of worms.

Are you saying that you can not remove one post or two etc. By that I mean you can not pluck any particular posts out of a thread? Are you saying you have to remove entire sections just to remove one or a few offending posts? Does that mean if someone writes something extremely vulgar and you want it out of there you have to pull out all the posts after that offending post to remove it?

[_Jersey Girl]

In that series of exchanges (which I'm using as an example) it is near impossible to decide which posts to move. And that, marg, is the nature of splitting off posts in the Celestial. You either choose to split off posts and disrupt the flow of the exchanges, split nothing and expect people to complain about the tone of the exchanges or you move the thread south to the Terrestrial.

Those are the only choices available on this board since editing from within is not an option and certainly not an option that I'd want to see instituted on this board for it opens up yet another can of worms.

Are you saying that you can not remove one post or two etc. By that I mean you can not pluck any particular posts out of a thread? Are you saying you have to remove entire sections just to remove one or a few offending posts? Does that mean if someone writes something extremely vulgar and you want it out of there you have to pull out all the posts after that offending post to remove it?

No, it means that it's a difficult proposition, one that might sacrifice the integrity of the thread and has to be dealt with on a case by case basis. I want to myself clearer on the "editing from within" piece. We can certainly edit profanity from within. There are only a few words off limits in specific forums. If the entire post were one of vulgarity (and I think that you and I have seen those elsewhere) I'd have no problem clipping out the post and moving it to a lower forum if need be.

I had thought about a 3 strikes policy for the Celestial. For example, the offending party is cautioned twice and then the third time they are jettisoned out of the thread itself. I can see potential pitfalls with that idea. One being that the "offending" poster could continue coming back and require ongoing mod attention in just one thread. Example: You can think back to some of the exchanges I had with another poster elsewhere and see that if someone had clipped either of us from the thread at the time, one or both of us would have resurrected the "war" (which I now see how foolish that is) on another thread and just kept at it. In that case (and that really was the case) there was no moderating us. The only thing that could have been done would have been to knock us off the board and that didn't happen.

Utlimately, there is a "no banning" policy on this board so everything that is decided upon by mods has to be with that reality in mind.

Also, I've only split one thread so I don't know if this is accurate or not. I think that when you split it is a one time split of the thread. You take a series of posts and relocate them. I'm not entirely sure if you can continue moving single posts into the split or if you have to create yet another split thread.

Moderation on this board isn't entirely time consuming because for the most part, posters are compliant with forum descriptions. The difficulty comes (in my view) when you're looking at a serious discussion in the Celestial and wanting to be careful about what topical material might be sacrificed in the process of relocating posts.

I and the other mods have to work under Shades policies. I wouldn't half mind moving a series of posts out of the Evidence thread even though I know that some folks would probably bitch about which ones I moved. There is no pleasing everyone because each individual views their posts and the place their posts hold in the discussion differently.

I'm still willing to split the thread in question however, you have to consider the "chicken/egg" effect that is produced when you begin moving out posts and that at least some topical content would be lost in the move.

[_marg]

[
No, it means that it's a difficult proposition, one that might sacrifice the integrity of the thread and has to be dealt with on a case by case basis. I want to myself clearer on the "editing from within" piece. We can certainly edit profanity from within. There are only a few words off limits in specific forums. If the entire post were one of vulgarity (and I think that you and I have seen those elsewhere) I'd have no problem clipping out the post and moving it to a lower forum if need be.

I had thought about a 3 strikes policy for the Celestial. For example, the offending party is cautioned twice and then the third time they are jettisoned out of the thread itself. I can see potential pitfalls with that idea. One being that the "offending" poster could continue coming back and require ongoing mod attention in just one thread. Example: You can think back to some of the exchanges I had with another poster elsewhere and see that if someone had clipped either of us from the thread at the time, one or both of us would have resurrected the "war" (which I now see how foolish that is) on another thread and just kept at it. In that case (and that really was the case) there was no moderating us. The only thing that could have been done would have been to knock us off the board and that didn't happen.

Ya, you don't want to tell anyone they can not participate, because they can work around w and someone who is angry will do so.

And you don't want to be editing posts because that is just a lot of work, you are doing the work the offending party should do and after the fact, sometimes it doesn't matter.

But since it is the Celestial you do want exchanges that are going to be somewhat free of personal attacks, unneccesary to the argument derogatory comments of the another person.

My suggestion is you warn, twice and then remove further posts..the entire post. Even if the person has stuff in the post on topic. That person if they wish can repost omitting their ad homs. The twice warnings make it easy to focus on one person. And they themselves have triggered a spotlight on them, so it is up to them to be careful. Let them do the work of removing their ad homs. You don't have to concern yourself with every single person, and every single ad hom. made by anyone.

Utlimately, there is a "no banning" policy on this board so everything that is decided upon by mods has to be with that reality in mind.

Taht's why I said previously remove the entire post to another forum.

Also, I've only split one thread so I don't know if this is accurate or not. I think that when you split it is a one time split of the thread. You take a series of posts and relocate them. I'm not entirely sure if you can continue moving single posts into the split or if you have to create yet another split thread.

Moderation on this board isn't entirely time consuming because for the most part, posters are compliant with forum descriptions. The difficulty comes (in my view) when you're looking at a serious discussion in the Celestial and wanting to be careful about what topical material might be sacrificed in the process of relocating posts.

I and the other mods have to work under Shades policies. I wouldn't half mind moving a series of posts out of the Evidence thread even though I know that some folks would probably bitch about which ones I moved. There is no pleasing everyone because each individual views their posts and the place their posts hold in the discussion differently.

I'm still willing to split the thread in question however, you have to consider the "chicken/egg" effect that is produced when you begin moving out posts and that at least some topical content would be lost in the move.

Let me take a look at that thread today and I'll see if there are posts I would have removed.

If so, I'll give the link and the reason. It may be there is nothing I would have removed. I have to review it again.

[_marg]

Having looked at it once again in detail, I think the most cost effective thing to do is nothing.

Sure you can end up moderating, taking bits out, removing posts, but you stir up a hornets nest, a lot of work.

Kevin I think does harass. A lot of his posts are strawmen, he attributes things said by someone they don't say, then he attacks not only what they don't say but personally attacks them for saying something they never said anyhow. And he laces his posts with ad homs frequently.

I really don't know how you stop someone harrasing and arguing fallaciously, that is arguing strawmen, ad homs that sort of thing. I thought it would be easy by pulling posts out but I think the problem there is it will look like mod bias.

If you are at the point that you feel the thread should be moved, then you are at the point of pulling posts out, one at a time, or taking particular words out. For this thread, I would opt with the participants handling on their own, rather than removing words or posts.

Maybe JAK will have a suggestion when he gets back.

[_Imwashingmypirate]

My heart is skipping beats just skimming this. That is why I won't be serious. I just get loads of memories and arghhhhh... To Jersey Girl's first post on this thread; I know exactly where you are coming from.