Evidence for Jesus

[_Jersey Girl]

GoodK

No it isn't evidence.

It is a dubious collection of early writings that contradict eachother, promote ideas that were popular at the time, and that don't have a clear author or date.

How do the writings in the New Testament contradict eachother?

You must be kidding. You expect me to lay it all out here?

I doubt you have failed to encounter at least one of the many contradictions in the Old and New Testaments.

Was he crucified on Friday or Sunday Jersey Girl?

Depends on what book you read.

Who was there when he appeared after resurrection?

Depends on what book you read.

You should really know this stuff -- if you've read the Bible.

When you make an assertion in this forum on this board, yes I expect you to lay something out here. Slapping up lists without commentary, making assertions about contradictions doesn't constitute engagement of the topic.

I can already tell from your posts that you rely on skeptic sites and have not engaged the material yourself. I've been engaging and engaged by skeptics for years and I know exactly what you're going to present to me before you present it.

The question here is not whether or not I "know this stuff" the question is whether or not you are willing to support your regurgitations of the skeptic material that is the basis for your unsupported assertions.

Let's get a definition of "contradiction" up here before we go on because your "Friday/Saturday" comment no doubt gleaned from a list of Bible "contradictions" isn't a contradiction at all. I'll find one right now.

[_GoodK]

You sure you want to stick with that?

Sure do.

(Waiting for some Josephus reference from you to put the cherry on top of this silly exchange)

[_Jersey Girl]

con·tra·dic·tion /ˌkɒntrəˈdɪkʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-dik-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial.
3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.
4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency.
5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.

You see, GoodK? The Friday/Saturday comment doesn't fall into the category of contradiction. You have supplied no discussion regarding "Friday/Saturday" nor have you demonstrated that you've engaged scripture in light of Jewish culture. You simply grab something from a skeptic site (or book) and slap it up here as if it's something new. The skeptic sites that you presumably frequent, make the very same mistakes. There is no in depth research involved, it's superficial material intended to satisify superficial thinkers.


Again, the "Friday/Saturday" comment does not constitute "contradiction".

Got more?

[_GoodK]

GoodK

No it isn't evidence.

It is a dubious collection of early writings that contradict eachother, promote ideas that were popular at the time, and that don't have a clear author or date.

How do the writings in the New Testament contradict eachother?

You must be kidding. You expect me to lay it all out here?

I doubt you have failed to encounter at least one of the many contradictions in the Old and New Testaments.

Was he crucified on Friday or Sunday Jersey Girl?

Depends on what book you read.

Who was there when he appeared after resurrection?

Depends on what book you read.

You should really know this stuff -- if you've read the Bible.

When you make an assertion, yes I expect you to lay something out here. Slapping up lists without commentary, making assertions about contradictions doesn't constitute engagement of the topic.

I can already tell from your posts that you rely on skeptic sites and have not engaged the material yourself. I've been engaging and engaged by skeptics for years and I know exactly what you're going to present to me before you present it.

The question here is not whether or not I "know this stuff" the question is whether or not you are willing to support your regurgitations of the skeptic material that is the basis for your unsupported assertions.

Let's get a definition of "contradiction" up here before we go on because your "Friday/Saturday" comment no doubt gleaned from a list of Bible "contradictions" isn't a contradiction at all. I'll find one right now.

Ad hominems from a moderator... Tsk Tsk...


Jersey Girl is sounding more and more like Kevin as time goes on...

I KNOW YOU KNOW my friend, which is why I don't feel obligated to supply you with every contradiction that is contained within the Bible.

You present yourself as a seasoned polemicist, yet your ad hominem attack regarding where I get my information is quite amateurish.

Does the New Testament contradict itself on specific details regarding Jesus Christ? Yes or No.
The answer is Yes.

If you want a full treatise on the subject, I am not the one to ask. Might I suggest Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus.


I did lay something out briefly -even though it was off topic and common knowledge - but since you are a moderator here, why not make a new thread regarding contradictions in the New Testament instead of derailing a thread that is clearly demonstrating the lack of evidence for Jesus?

I would gladly participate in that discussion.
(there are now two threads in the Celestial discussing the evidence of Jesus, I wonder why this topic is victim to such frequent derailment....)

Might I also suggest putting the New Testament contradictions thread in the Terrestrial Forum, where your ad hominems belong?

con·tra·dic·tion /ˌkɒntrəˈdɪkʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-dik-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial.
3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.
4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency.
5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.

You see, GoodK? The Friday/Saturday comment doesn't fall into the category of contradiction. You have supplied no discussion regarding "Friday/Saturday" nor have you demonstrated that you've engaged scripture in light of Jewish culture. You simply grab something from a skeptic site (or book) and slap it up here as if it's something new. The skeptic sites that you presumably frequent, make the very same mistakes. There is no in depth research involved, it's superficial material intended to satisify superficial thinkers.


Again, the "Friday/Saturday" comment does not constitute "contradiction".

Got more?

Laughable. Like I said, start a new discussion if you'd like to discuss the contradictions of the New Testament.

(Jersey Girl also believes that the Old Testament is not wrong in saying the entire Earth was flooded, rather it meant to say it was a local flood) -- just some background information for anyone unfamiliar with Jersey Girl's reverence for the Bible.

[_Jersey Girl]

GoodK,

Religious Tolerance.org is site that presents a well balanced view of religious topics. Here is a link regarding the issue that you raised:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter6.htm

And a partial excerpt:

Many people do not realize that the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) discusses two different kinds of Sabbaths:

One type occurs on a weekly basis, from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
The other type -- called "high days" consist of the seven annual Sabbath days listed in Leviticus 23. These could occur on any day of the week.

Unless the plural form of Sabbath in Matthew 28:1 was an error by the author of Matthew, or an error subsequently made by a copyist, then the week in which Jesus was executed must have contained two Sabbaths, not one. The presence of the second Sabbath -- a High Sabbath -- is confirmed in John 19:31:

King James Version: "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

You see, there are cultural explanations for the types of "contradictions" that you state. That particular article will go on to discuss various discrepancies. The list of contradictions are typically filled with lists of discrepancies, not contradictions and there typically is no engagement of the discrepancies.

Religous Tolerance.org makes an effort to present all sides.

[_Jersey Girl]

You sure you want to stick with that?

Sure do.

(Waiting for some Josephus reference from you to put the cherry on top of this silly exchange)

Josephus? There are others on the list besides Joseph that make reference to Christ.

[_GoodK]

GoodK,

Religious Tolerance.org is site that presents a well balanced view of religious topics. Here is a link regarding the issue that you raised:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter6.htm

And a partial excerpt:

Many people do not realize that the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) discusses two different kinds of Sabbaths:

One type occurs on a weekly basis, from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
The other type -- called "high days" consist of the seven annual Sabbath days listed in Leviticus 23. These could occur on any day of the week.

Unless the plural form of Sabbath in Matthew 28:1 was an error by the author of Matthew, or an error subsequently made by a copyist, then the week in which Jesus was executed must have contained two Sabbaths, not one. The presence of the second Sabbath -- a High Sabbath -- is confirmed in John 19:31:

King James Version: "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

You see, there are cultural explanations for the types of "contradictions" that you state.

(emphasis added)

Yes. A fabulous explanation. Either a mistake was made, or the laws that govern human life and this universe were suspended (for the first and only time in human history) in order to allow a human mammal (whom we still don't know for sure existed) to overcome death.

Good job.


So when was Jesus executed? Please explain, rather than make excuses for why it could be wrong.

This is my second request to move this to a new thread. I'm still waiting for some better evidence for Jesus, and there are some of us here who wish to stay on topic.

P.S there ARE plenty more contradictions that I will post on the new thread, but I did bring up another if you go back to the post in which you are responding to, you may catch it. (hint: who was there when Jesus appeared to Mary?)

[_GoodK]

You sure you want to stick with that?

Sure do.

(Waiting for some Josephus reference from you to put the cherry on top of this silly exchange)

Josephus? There are others on the list besides Joseph that make reference to Christ.

Others? Go ahead, wow me.

[_Jersey Girl]

GoodK

No it isn't evidence.

It is a dubious collection of early writings that contradict eachother, promote ideas that were popular at the time, and that don't have a clear author or date.

How do the writings in the New Testament contradict eachother?

You must be kidding. You expect me to lay it all out here?

I doubt you have failed to encounter at least one of the many contradictions in the Old and New Testaments.

Was he crucified on Friday or Sunday Jersey Girl?

Depends on what book you read.

Who was there when he appeared after resurrection?

Depends on what book you read.

You should really know this stuff -- if you've read the Bible.

When you make an assertion, yes I expect you to lay something out here. Slapping up lists without commentary, making assertions about contradictions doesn't constitute engagement of the topic.

I can already tell from your posts that you rely on skeptic sites and have not engaged the material yourself. I've been engaging and engaged by skeptics for years and I know exactly what you're going to present to me before you present it.

The question here is not whether or not I "know this stuff" the question is whether or not you are willing to support your regurgitations of the skeptic material that is the basis for your unsupported assertions.

Let's get a definition of "contradiction" up here before we go on because your "Friday/Saturday" comment no doubt gleaned from a list of Bible "contradictions" isn't a contradiction at all. I'll find one right now.

Ad hominems from a moderator... Tsk Tsk...


Jersey Girl is sounding more and more like Kevin as time goes on...

I KNOW YOU KNOW my friend, which is why I don't feel obligated to supply you with every contradiction that is contained within the Bible.

You present yourself as a seasoned polemicist, yet your ad hominem attack regarding where I get my information is quite amateurish.

Does the New Testament contradict itself on specific details regarding Jesus Christ? Yes or No.
The answer is Yes.

If you want a full treatise on the subject, I am not the one to ask. Might I suggest Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus.


I did lay something out briefly -even though it was off topic and common knowledge - but since you are a moderator here, why not make a new thread regarding contradictions in the New Testament instead of derailing a thread that is clearly demonstrating the lack of evidence for Jesus?

I would gladly participate in that discussion.
(there are now two threads in the Celestial discussing the evidence of Jesus, I wonder why this topic is victim to such frequent derailment....)

Might I also suggest putting the New Testament contradictions thread in the Terrestrial Forum, where your ad hominems belong?

con·tra·dic·tion /ˌkɒntrəˈdɪkʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-dik-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial.
3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.
4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency.
5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.

You see, GoodK? The Friday/Saturday comment doesn't fall into the category of contradiction. You have supplied no discussion regarding "Friday/Saturday" nor have you demonstrated that you've engaged scripture in light of Jewish culture. You simply grab something from a skeptic site (or book) and slap it up here as if it's something new. The skeptic sites that you presumably frequent, make the very same mistakes. There is no in depth research involved, it's superficial material intended to satisify superficial thinkers.


Again, the "Friday/Saturday" comment does not constitute "contradiction".

Got more?

Laughable. Like I said, start a new discussion if you'd like to be discuss the contradictions of the New Testament.

(Jersey Girl also believes that the Old Testament is not wrong in saying the entire Earth was flooded, rather it meant to say it was a local flood) -- just some background information for anyone unfamiliar with Jersey Girl's reverence for the Bible.

Once again, you have failed to supply any engagement of the statements made to you, GoodK. Whether or not I am a moderator, who I sound like or what you think I believe, isn't the issue. I've given you a definition to work with and you've chosen to ignore it.

Statements such as "Laughable or You must be kidding" isn't discussion.

With regards to my comments here to you, I have already noted my posts here to other moderators for their review.

[_GoodK]

Once again, you have failed to supply any engagement of the statements made to you, GoodK.

Ah man, you must have missed it.

Here you go:

GoodK

No it isn't evidence.

It is a dubious collection of early writings that contradict eachother, promote ideas that were popular at the time, and that don't have a clear author or date.

How do the writings in the New Testament contradict eachother?

You must be kidding. You expect me to lay it all out here?

I doubt you have failed to encounter at least one of the many contradictions in the Old and New Testaments.

Was he crucified on Friday or Sunday Jersey Girl?

Depends on what book you read.

Who was there when he appeared after resurrection?

Depends on what book you read.

You should really know this stuff -- if you've read the Bible.

When you make an assertion, yes I expect you to lay something out here. Slapping up lists without commentary, making assertions about contradictions doesn't constitute engagement of the topic.

I can already tell from your posts that you rely on skeptic sites and have not engaged the material yourself. I've been engaging and engaged by skeptics for years and I know exactly what you're going to present to me before you present it.

The question here is not whether or not I "know this stuff" the question is whether or not you are willing to support your regurgitations of the skeptic material that is the basis for your unsupported assertions.

Let's get a definition of "contradiction" up here before we go on because your "Friday/Saturday" comment no doubt gleaned from a list of Bible "contradictions" isn't a contradiction at all. I'll find one right now.

Ad hominems from a moderator... Tsk Tsk...


Jersey Girl is sounding more and more like Kevin as time goes on...

I KNOW YOU KNOW my friend, which is why I don't feel obligated to supply you with every contradiction that is contained within the Bible.

You present yourself as a seasoned polemicist, yet your ad hominem attack regarding where I get my information is quite amateurish.

Does the New Testament contradict itself on specific details regarding Jesus Christ? Yes or No.
The answer is Yes.

If you want a full treatise on the subject, I am not the one to ask. Might I suggest Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus.


I did lay something out briefly -even though it was off topic and common knowledge - but since you are a moderator here, why not make a new thread regarding contradictions in the New Testament instead of derailing a thread that is clearly demonstrating the lack of evidence for Jesus?

I would gladly participate in that discussion.
(there are now two threads in the Celestial discussing the evidence of Jesus, I wonder why this topic is victim to such frequent derailment....)

Might I also suggest putting the New Testament contradictions thread in the Terrestrial Forum, where your ad hominems belong?

con·tra·dic·tion /ˌkɒntrəˈdɪkʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-dik-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial.
3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.
4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency.
5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.

You see, GoodK? The Friday/Saturday comment doesn't fall into the category of contradiction. You have supplied no discussion regarding "Friday/Saturday" nor have you demonstrated that you've engaged scripture in light of Jewish culture. You simply grab something from a skeptic site (or book) and slap it up here as if it's something new. The skeptic sites that you presumably frequent, make the very same mistakes. There is no in depth research involved, it's superficial material intended to satisify superficial thinkers.


Again, the "Friday/Saturday" comment does not constitute "contradiction".

Got more?

Laughable. Like I said, start a new discussion if you'd like to be discuss the contradictions of the New Testament.

(Jersey Girl also believes that the Old Testament is not wrong in saying the entire Earth was flooded, rather it meant to say it was a local flood) -- just some background information for anyone unfamiliar with Jersey Girl's reverence for the Bible.

Like I said, wake me up when someone has some evidence besides the dubious New Testament for Jesus.

Does Jersey Girl really think the New Testament doesn't contradict itself?

Once again, you have failed to supply any engagement of the statements made to you, GoodK. Whether or not I am a moderator, who I sound like or what you think I believe, isn't the issue. I've given you a definition to work with and you've chosen to ignore it.

Statements such as "Laughable or You must be kidding" isn't discussion.

With regards to my comments here to you, I have already noted my posts here to other moderators for their review.

Good, while you are at it start a new thread for your newest derailment.

If I knew your argument (and if you didn't keep changing it) perhaps I could "engage" to your satisfaction.

Here is a summary for you and everyone else:

First Jersey Girl wanted to see a list of historians that didn't write about Jesus even though they should have if the New Testament is correct in its claims, so I obliged.

Then you decided that it wasn't good enough because some of those listed were alive within a hundred years of Jesus, so I kindly pointed out that the biggest piece of evidence for Jesus was written after he had died. You (smartly) abandoned that logic and moved on to ask me where the New Testament contradicted itself (derailment) and I briefly listed two examples off the top of my head (hoping to silence your derailment and stay on topic) and here we are, with ad hominems and discussing the meaning of contradict. Where is ROP when we need to discuss the meaning of words? ;)

Here is number 3:

Move this portion of the discussion to its own thread, contradictions of the New Testament.