GoodK wrote:I didn't know that each of these men would have to say, verbatim, "I deny the existence of Jesus" for them to count.
But you started out with that claim. If you asserted that they didn't like organized religion, I would agree with you. But that's not the same thing as denying Jesus' existence. And your source link does not assert that this list of people denied Jesus' existence.
I used the word challenge, but I don't think it is accurate/fair to say the simply disliked organized religion. Not at all. I suppose I have some work to do.. which is fine, I'm up for it.
GoodK wrote:I do hope we can keep this discussion civil for the time being, but here are a few quotes that make me doubt Paine believed in the historical Jesus:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of ... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
"I detest the Bible as I detest everything that is cruel."
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
"Is it not a species of blasphemy to call the New Testament revealed religion, when we see in it such contradictions and absurdities."
"It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes."
"My mind is my own church."
"That God cannot lie, is no advantage to your argument, because it is no proof that priests can not, or that the Bible does not."
"How different is [Christianity] to the pure and simple profession of Deism! The true Deist has but one Deity, and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in everything moral, scientifical, and mechanical."
But who knows, too bad he isn't around to speak for himself.
There's no denial of Jesus' existence in these quotes. Deists in general did not deny Jesus' existence. They considered him to be a good man whose teachings had been distorted. The correct teachings of Jesus just happened to coincide with their own thoughts.
I may be uninformed, but since when does being a deist equate with being a believer in the historical Jesus?
On Paine and Jesus. Paine had no use for Christianity, yet, seemed to suggest the possibility that Jesus was a historical figure.
Age of Reason Part First, Section 2
Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most benevolent kind; and though similar systems of morality had been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before; by the Quakers since; and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by any.
Jesus Christ wrote no account of himself, of his birth, parentage, or any thing else; not a line of what is called the New Testament is of his own writing. The history of him is altogether the work of other people; and as to the account given of his resurrection and ascension, it was the necessary counterpart to the story of his birth. His historians having brought him into the world in a supernatural manner, were obliged to take him out again in the same manner, or the first part of the story must have fallen to the ground.
GoodK wrote:I didn't know that each of these men would have to say, verbatim, "I deny the existence of Jesus" for them to count.
But you started out with that claim. If you asserted that they didn't like organized religion, I would agree with you. But that's not the same thing as denying Jesus' existence. And your source link does not assert that this list of people denied Jesus' existence. It mentions destroying the Jesus myth. That's NOT the same thing as the existence of Jesus. I'm used to evaluating source documents (see my article http://www.thespacereview.com/article/626/1). I suggest that you be a bit more careful in your claims.
I'm proud of your accomplishments, (no sarcasm there) but I provided a list that was quite lengthy. So far, less than 10% of the scholars I listed are in dispute.
I wish I could be right 90% of the time in real life.
That such a person as Jesus Christ existed, and that he was crucified, which was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and the equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of the whole order of priesthood. The accusation which those priests brought against him was that of sedition and conspiracy against the Roman government, to which the Jews were then subject and tributary; and it is not improbable that the Roman government might have some secret apprehensions of the effects of his doctrine, as well as the Jewish priests; neither is it improbable that Jesus Christ had in contemplation the delivery of the Jewish nation from the bondage of the Romans. Between the two, however, this virtuous reformer and revolutionist lost his life.
Sorry, for interrupting the scholars. I just like Paine. :)
richardMdBorn wrote:There's no denial of Jesus' existence in these quotes. Deists in general did not deny Jesus' existence. They considered him to be a good man whose teachings had been distorted. The correct teachings of Jesus just happened to coincide with their own thoughts.
I may be uninformed, but since when does being a deist equate with being a believer in the historical Jesus?
I didn't say it did. I said that Deists in general did not deny the existence of Jesus. Jefferson certainly didn't. Equate would mean that I wrote "All Deists affirmed Jesus' existence."
GoodK wrote:I didn't know that each of these men would have to say, verbatim, "I deny the existence of Jesus" for them to count.
But you started out with that claim. If you asserted that they didn't like organized religion, I would agree with you. But that's not the same thing as denying Jesus' existence. And your source link does not assert that this list of people denied Jesus' existence. It mentions destroying the Jesus myth. That's NOT the same thing as the existence of Jesus. I'm used to evaluating source documents (see my article http://www.thespacereview.com/article/626/1). I suggest that you be a bit more careful in your claims.
I'm proud of your accomplishments, (no sarcasm there) but I provided a list that was quite lengthy. So far, less than 10% of the scholars I listed are in dispute.
I wish I could be right 90% of the time in real life.
Well, I do have a day job. I think that my posts suffice to disprove your statement. But if want me to continue examining additional individuals, I will.
GoodK wrote:I didn't know that each of these men would have to say, verbatim, "I deny the existence of Jesus" for them to count.
But you started out with that claim. If you asserted that they didn't like organized religion, I would agree with you. But that's not the same thing as denying Jesus' existence. And your source link does not assert that this list of people denied Jesus' existence. It mentions destroying the Jesus myth. That's NOT the same thing as the existence of Jesus. I'm used to evaluating source documents (see my article http://www.thespacereview.com/article/626/1). I suggest that you be a bit more careful in your claims.
I'm proud of your accomplishments, (no sarcasm there) but I provided a list that was quite lengthy. So far, less than 10% of the scholars I listed are in dispute.
I wish I could be right 90% of the time in real life.
Well, I do have a day job. I think that my posts suffice to disprove your statement. But if want me to continue examining additional individuals, I will.
richardMdBorn wrote: I said that Deists in general did not deny the existence of Jesus.
I don't know about Deists in general. Blanket statements are hard to argue with and hard to defend.
I'll read through your posts a bit more carefully tomorrow. I have a day job as well.
So far, less than 10% of the scholars I listed are in dispute.
We've only looked into 10% of the list. So another way of saying it is that 100% of those who have been researched, are in dispute.
How many more would be in dispute if someone had the time and resources to verify?
This is the problem with the JAK method. It produces more questions than answers, more skepticism than confidence and more heat than light.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
dartagnan wrote: (Expect marg to present a twenty page analysis on how I really "implied" Paine was "pro Christian.")
I've already said I'm not going to invest time and energy in this forum particularly if it is unable to control people such as yourself who lace just about every line of their posts with personal attacks in lieu of substance. There is a saying... garbage in ..garbage out. Just reading your posts is being exposed to too much garbage. Kevin you don't think, you regurgitate especially from apologist sites.