I'm getting confused

[_Gazelam]

How long should she remain on her knees when she gets no answer (the only way you get an answer is if you bend down knowing you'll get one...in which case son-of-a-gun you'll get one [because you make yourself have one])?

Believe me Bond, when you receive a witness of the Spirit, you know it. Its nothing I could trick myself into. I can only come close to explaining it by telling you it was like being filled up with light and being wrapped up in a blanket at the same time. Theres nothing else like it.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Gaz,

Should Tyger go through the same exercise for other religions as well?

Scientology, Islam, JWs, Hinduism, Judaism, Juche, Sikhism, Catholicism, Baha'i, Jainism, etc. etc. etc.

She could read the required texts, fast, pray, attend their meetings, get a healing, immerse herself in the culture, decide the religion is the one and only true one, have completely faith in their leader/prophet/gurus/Imam/Pope/Pastor/whomever, then pray asking a yes or no question?

The problem is, seems pretty much everyone the world over believers their religion is the true/right/correct one. When people ask God if their religion is true, guess what? The answer pretty much always comes back in the positive.

Makes it kind of difficult ya know? ;-)


~dancer~

[_William Schryver]

thanks for all the support, from every point of view. And Gaz, thanks and I agree with you partly. I agree that I should be reading the scriptures and asking missionaries and other church authorities what they think and for advice, but I also think that I need more than just that. I think that I can't really say I believe in the church unless my questions are answered, and if I agree with those answers. You can't really belong to a religion you don't understand or agree with. And part of understanding is looking at it from every point of view, not only from church authorities but people who don't agree with or believe in the church.

Well, Tyger, if you're looking for people to confirm and help you complete your justification of the reasons you are disenchanted with Mormonism, you've certainly come to the right place. There are several people here who will take you under their wing and lead you down the path to complete apostasy and disbelief. In fact, I doubt it will take more than a couple weeks before you've become a full-fledged member of their club.

[_harmony]

Welcome Tyger.

I would advise you to find out for yourself if the church is true. Your at the age and mindset now where you can't live on borrowed light and/or a borrowed testimony.

The only way to know if the church is true is by the Holy Ghost. That is the entire purpose of the Holy Ghost, he exists solely to testify to us that God is real and to teach you what is true in regards to him. His names include the titles of Comforter, Sanctifier, Revelator and Spirit of Truth.

The two key words that you can relate to the Holy Ghost are Peace and Joy. He operates in your mind and heart (D&C 8:2-3) and the peaceful feeling that you get will always be associated with the knowledge of heaven.

A good experiment would be to do what the missionaries tell their investigators to do. read the Book of Mormon and then pray and ask your Father in Heaven if it is true. the traditional chapter to read is 3 Nephi chp.11. After this read Moroni 10:3-5.

Ask your question in a yes or no fashion. After you pray remain on your knees and give the Spirit time to answer your prayer.

all the best

Gaz

Keep in mind, Tyger, that God operates independently from the church and the church operates independently from God. The two are not synonymous, nor are they intertwined to the extent that some people might have you believe. Approach God from the angle that the LDS church doesn't have to be true in order for you to believe in him, and your answers may be different from what you assume will (or will not) come.

Oh, and knees, folded arms, closed eyes etc. are immaterial. God will hear you, no matter what position you're in.

First, build a relationship with God, then ask the questions about the church. Without first building a relationship with God, you'll be dependent on the answers of men. Men have their own agenda. God only has your agenda in mind.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

thanks for all the support, from every point of view. And Gaz, thanks and I agree with you partly. I agree that I should be reading the scriptures and asking missionaries and other church authorities what they think and for advice, but I also think that I need more than just that. I think that I can't really say I believe in the church unless my questions are answered, and if I agree with those answers. You can't really belong to a religion you don't understand or agree with. And part of understanding is looking at it from every point of view, not only from church authorities but people who don't agree with or believe in the church.

Well, Tyger, if you're looking for people to confirm and help you complete your justification of the reasons you are disenchanted with Mormonism, you've certainly come to the right place. There are several people here who will take you under their wing and lead you down the path to complete apostasy and disbelief. In fact, I doubt it will take more than a couple weeks before you've become a full-fledged member of their club.

It is far easier to see the truth than it is to hide it.

TygerFang will soon realize Mormon historical study is very subjective and open to interpretation like Bible study.

People like Will have a distinct need to believe.

Tyger, on the other hand does not. Take advantage of that and use that space to examine the claims of this church from the outside.

[_Gazelam]

Hi Gaz,

Should Tyger go through the same exercise for other religions as well?

Scientology, Islam, JWs, Hinduism, Judaism, Juche, Sikhism, Catholicism, Baha'I, Jainism, etc. etc. etc.

She could read the required texts, fast, pray, attend their meetings, get a healing, immerse herself in the culture, decide the religion is the one and only true one, have completely faith in their leader/prophet/gurus/Imam/Pope/Pastor/whomever, then pray asking a yes or no question?

The problem is, seems pretty much everyone the world over believers their religion is the true/right/correct one. When people ask God if their religion is true, guess what? The answer pretty much always comes back in the positive.

Makes it kind of difficult ya know? ;-)


~dancer~

Know what else they share all over the world Dancer? The same creation story and the same flood story. Go a little further and hit Abraham and Moses, and its easy to see that the Mormon church is the one true church.

[_guy sajer]

Welcome Tyger.

I would advise you to find out for yourself if the church is true. Your at the age and mindset now where you can't live on borrowed light and/or a borrowed testimony.

The only way to know if the church is true is by the Holy Ghost. That is the entire purpose of the Holy Ghost, he exists solely to testify to us that God is real and to teach you what is true in regards to him. His names include the titles of Comforter, Sanctifier, Revelator and Spirit of Truth.

The two key words that you can relate to the Holy Ghost are Peace and Joy. He operates in your mind and heart (D&C 8:2-3) and the peaceful feeling that you get will always be associated with the knowledge of heaven.

A good experiment would be to do what the missionaries tell their investigators to do. read the Book of Mormon and then pray and ask your Father in Heaven if it is true. the traditional chapter to read is 3 Nephi chp.11. After this read Moroni 10:3-5.

Ask your question in a yes or no fashion. After you pray remain on your knees and give the Spirit time to answer your prayer.

all the best

Gaz

Keep in mind, Tyger, that God operates independently from the church and the church operates independently from God. The two are not synonymous, nor are they intertwined to the extent that some people might have you believe. Approach God from the angle that the LDS church doesn't have to be true in order for you to believe in him, and your answers may be different from what you assume will (or will not) come.

Oh, and knees, folded arms, closed eyes etc. are immaterial. God will hear you, no matter what position you're in.

First, build a relationship with God, then ask the questions about the church. Without first building a relationship with God, you'll be dependent on the answers of men. Men have their own agenda. God only has your agenda in mind.

I've never quite figured out how one can build a relationship with a non-existent being .

Or even if God did exist, how do you have a relationship with someone you never see or hear (or generally who never, ever communicates with you in a way you can verify)?

Clearly, the term "relationship" here has a different connotation.

[_bcspace]

I live in Utah and my entire family is a part of the Mormon church, except my sister who left the church to rebel against my mom. I've been having doubts about the church for a long time and I've really wanted to sort of work out what that means. The only problem is that there's really no where for me to do that, my family is political and extremely religous and so is my ward and neighbors, and there's really no where else that I would really want to talk about this personal of thing. So I've just been reading up on the internet and been trying to see all sides instead of just the one.

Sounds like you're not looking for answers, only reasons to doubt.

[_guy sajer]

I live in Utah and my entire family is a part of the Mormon church, except my sister who left the church to rebel against my mom. I've been having doubts about the church for a long time and I've really wanted to sort of work out what that means. The only problem is that there's really no where for me to do that, my family is political and extremely religous and so is my ward and neighbors, and there's really no where else that I would really want to talk about this personal of thing. So I've just been reading up on the internet and been trying to see all sides instead of just the one.

Sounds like you're not looking for answers, only reasons to doubt.

And right here you find one of the preferred strategies of believers to keep you in the fold: Shift the blame to the doubter. If you doubt, it is due to some character defect, NEVER because there are legitimate reasons to doubt, but because you are weak, lack faith, are arrogant, are too trusting of the flesh, etc., or in bcspace's case, because you WANT to doubt and are looking for reasons to justify it, no doubt due to some character defect you're hiding from us.

Doubt is as natural to humans as belief is. We ALL have doubts, even bcspace. (Why even bcspace doubts whether Catholicism is true. Perhaps he's just looking for a reason to doubt.) What believers will try to get you to believe is that while doubt in general is valid, doubt about Mormonism is not.

So ask yourself this question, why is Mormonism the ONLY belief (religion) in the world for which doubt is invalid?

Once you answer this question honestly, this is an important step to true intellectual freedom.

[_Who Knows]

I live in Utah and my entire family is a part of the Mormon church, except my sister who left the church to rebel against my mom. I've been having doubts about the church for a long time and I've really wanted to sort of work out what that means. The only problem is that there's really no where for me to do that, my family is political and extremely religous and so is my ward and neighbors, and there's really no where else that I would really want to talk about this personal of thing. So I've just been reading up on the internet and been trying to see all sides instead of just the one.

Sounds like you're not looking for answers, only reasons to doubt.

And you like to claim religion and science go hand in hand?

In religion, looking for reasons to falsify your belief is a bad thing. In science, it's a good thing.