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_marg

Post by _marg »

Gadianton wrote:
Yes and you forgot to cite your source. In this case by the way


Well yeah...you do have a sense of humor, right?


What you mean to tell me you didn't forget? No? You are kidding me right? Tis a good thing I didn't compliment you on how brilliant your ideas on "critical thinking" & "concepts" were. That would have been a bad move. :)
_marg

Post by _marg »

Scratch I don't see that you've added anything new. You believe I'm blinded with love or infatuation and that's the only reason I say or think JAK is a high critical thinker. As far as the "love" goes I can't really counter that with evidence. You see JAK as intellectually dishonest which you translate into being a poor critical thinker and you use 2 cases in which JAK copied the words from a source. One case is a sentence which it appears he might have taken from a quote given on a a message board of the skeptic site and mixed it with his own worded paragraph and another is a short paragraph of factual data from his home encyclopedia. You don't acknowledge that in both cases what was presented was common knowledge available. Nor do you acknowledge the context in which JAK wrote, that is anonymously, on the internet with no benefit nor credit to be gained by citing, and what he posted was rather insignificant uncreative bits of information.

If I look at the volume of posts JAK has written over the years that I know of, many of those posts quite lengthy, 1,000 on this site, 3,000 on 2 think.org and many more that have been lost into oblivion from 2 think probably in the 1,000's I just can't get too impressed with your accusation of him being intellectually dishonesty ..given the perspective I have of reading many of his posts. He's probably at a minimum written 5,000 posts with at least 20 sentences per post. And you know that is an extremely conservative figure! So we are talking here of at least 100,000 written sentences minimum. So one sentence example of plagiarism off the net, plus a few sentences from an encyclopedia which he readily acknowledged the following day, represents a drop in the bucket compared to the amount he's written. I'm not saying he hasn't plagiarized technically, I'm saying when he has it was not a function of intellectual dishonesty/deliberate deceit. If he was so intellectually dishonest it would show up more than in a few sentences in a sea of at least a 100,000. There was no personal gain or recognition. I don't think given the context of the message boards he thought it important. And frankly I can see someone who is a high critical thinker thinking that way. In other words a high critical thinker sees the bigger picture, understands the reason for citing and realizes on a message board it's not all that important, there's little permanence to anything written. I do not think he was being intentionally dishonest. Now you can think my opinion is based on some sort of blind infatuation, not much I can do about that. by the way, you sound rather cute, maybe I should start flattering you :)
_Gadianton
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Post by _Gadianton »

Yes, that would have definitely been a bad move. Moving on.

Even if I just gave you one example, you should think to yourself, how did Gad find that one example in the first place?

You might have figured that I was able to predict JAK's plagiarism based on having seen many instances in the past. You can't just say, "that's one example, so what?" How in the world would I have just happened to stumble on it? And would it make sense that I'm suspicious of everyone, and copy and paste line after line into Google looking to catch someone of plagiarism? JAK's track record of plagiarism stretches far into the distant past. And it's based on that track record that I know when to be suspicious of what he writes. It was having seen many incidents of it before that gave me the ability to predict that one incidence I cited.

I also believe I know JAK's style. He's like a broken record with his lectures on evidence, "you have no evidence, you have speculation". Yeah, that's JAK, the original. So I can scan his posts very quickly, and as long as the points he's making are on about a 9th grade level and phrased like Babelfish translating a page of Spanish into English, I know it's good old JAK. But once what he says begins to sound mature and thought out, I know it's time to at once, copy and paste into Google.

So, for your amusement, I spent 5 minutes going through some of his posts and that's all it took to find the following:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... ght=#14591

compare to:

http://www.indianchristianity.org/sacrement.html

Note that this isn't even a standard Encyclopedia source for his material. It's just an off-the-wall reference that probably just happened to come up in his rushed word search. Like his Godel material, it isn't first rate scholarship, just someone's home page, and it's hit or miss whether it would reflect any scholarly consensus at all. But let's take a deeper look, because his little tricks most certainly betray one who is stealing someone elses material and presenting as his own rather than someone who forgot to put the quote marks in. The highlighted green are word for word. Blue is JAK.

Nicene Councils were two councils of the Christian Church held in Nicaea (Nice) in what is now Northwest Turkey. The first Council was called in 325 by Emperor Constantine to settle the dispute caused by the Arian views of the Trinity. Arius was a priest of Alexandria who believed that Christ is

So when he plagiarizes word-for-word, he starts sounding smart. But once he interjects his own thinking in:

/was not the same essence as God, but of similar substance (whatever that means).

It just shows how his career of plagiarism has stunted his ability to learn. Clearly, Arius did not believe God and Jesus were of "similar substance". I'm not a theologin, but I'd bet the author being plagiarized here should have used "substance" instead of "essence". And why the parenthetical? It's just bizarre.

The Council also fixed the time for observing Easter.

It was questioned whether the Christian Easter should be on the same day as the Jewish Observance (Passover) or on a Sunday.

Again, an interjection by JAK seeking to interpret what the author says, and again, once his own thinking enters the discussion, it's one false statement after another. If you read the text in the article, it doesn't say at all that it was "questioned" whether easter should be on passover or the following sunday, it mentions that different traditions had arisen celebrating Easter on two different days. That doesn't necessarily imply there was a "question" about it.

The Nicene Creed summarized the chief articles of the Christian faith of that time. It’s next oldest to the Apostles’ Creed. It was adopted originally in

a particular form.

Of course in this case, since the original text says "following form" and then presents the creed, he had to modify to keep the length down.

The second Council was called in 787 by the Empress Irene and her son Constantine. The Emperor Leo, Irene’s deceased husband had forbidden the use of images for any purpose. The Council was called because of the opposition to that decree. The Empress revoked the decree after the Council had laid down principles governing the veneration of images.

462 years in that era was progressively a relatively short time space compared with that number of years today.

I take it he means society progreseed very little in that time. I'll leave it to Shades or Scratch to judge grammar, but this is hardly the careful expression of a professor. You have to really strain at it to make any sense out of it. And out of place?

“The nature of God” has been evolving ever since the invention of God was constructed.

Another sentence I didn't bother to search for in that article or on Google. Awkward, wouldn't you say? When is the last time you've seen an articulate professor speak of the time when the invention of something was constructed? Oh, the modern world has been going downhill, ever since the invention of the automobile was constructed.

I won't color the last three sentences which obviously aren't plagiarized. No ma'am. I didn't google those. No chance of those sentiments showing up in an encylopedia or even a homepage someone found worthy to put money into.

Hence, the “nature of God” was not the issue under discussion as the Second Council was called in 787.

On your question as to right vs. wrong, the “nature of God” was simply not relevant specifically to the convening of that Second Council.

The issue was (what we know as) the official position of what has been the historical evolution of Christianity at the time
.

I could do this all night. But I've got to get up for work soon.
_Ren
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Post by _Ren »

Gad wrote:Well yeah...you do have a sense of humor, right?

Hmmm - I'm thinking not ;)

Hey - if marg could just get JAK to stop talking about himself in the third person sometimes, that'd be one clear step in the right direction...!
...that creeps Ren out...
_marg

Post by _marg »

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:
Gad wrote:Well yeah...you do have a sense of humor, right?

Hmmm - I'm thinking not ;)




Hey - if marg could just get JAK to stop talking about himself in the third person sometimes, that'd be one clear step in the right direction...!
...that creeps Ren out...


I hate theses idiots, these scatter brains, who pipe up in discussions they aren't following with stupid comments. What did that take you Ren a total of 2 seconds to think up and type?
_Ren
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Posts: 1387
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:34 am

Post by _Ren »

marg wrote:I hate theses idiots, these scatter brains, who pipe up in discussions they aren't following with stupid comments. What did that take you Ren a total of 2 seconds to think up and type?

Actually marg, I'm following the conversation just fine. Yet another inaccurate statement you have created out of whole cloth. You do that a lot.
I've put a decent amount of effort into clearly and accurately describing where JAK sometimes doesn't get things right in the past. But I've quickly learned that you're not interested. At all.
The last time I did it - instead of responding rationally and intelligently you attempted to jump to an ad hominem swipe about 'sexual fantasies' that - ironically enough - were your own 'fantasy'.

I'm sorry that I'm not the only one that sees through JAK's facade here - and therefore deny you the ability to turn past conversations into some personal issue.
If only we'd all just 'play along' huh... :/
_marg

Post by _marg »

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:
marg wrote:I hate theses idiots, these scatter brains, who pipe up in discussions they aren't following with stupid comments. What did that take you Ren a total of 2 seconds to think up and type?

Actually marg, I'm following the conversation just fine. Yet another inaccurate statement you have created out of whole cloth. You do that a lot.


Well if you were following along you would have seen I was joking with Gad. But you're such a friggin moron you think you add something to the discussion with your pathetic mindless garbage.

I've put a decent amount of effort into clearly and accurately describing where JAK sometimes doesn't get things right in the past. But I've quickly learned that you're not interested.


You got that right, I'm not interested in your stupidity. I'm glad you are catching on to that at least.

The last time I did it - instead of responding rationally and intelligently you attempted to jump to an ad hominem swipe about 'sexual fantasies' that - ironically enough - were your own 'fantasy'.


Right another illustration of your stupidity. Obviously you're too dumb to appreciate when someone is kidding with you.

I'm sorry that I'm not the only one that sees through JAK's facade here - and therefore deny you the ability to turn past conversations into some personal issue.


Huh, I'm turning a past conversation into a personal issue, no that's you twit-nit. You're bringing up the past.

If only we'd all just 'play along' huh... :/


No just you piss off. I can't stand mindless idiots like yourself. Seriously.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Gad thanks for your post. I will get back to you on it. My initial reaction is it's one of the worst posts I've seen from JAK. So I have to see if there is something I'm missing in understanding it.
_Ren
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Posts: 1387
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:34 am

Post by _Ren »

marg wrote:Obviously you're too dumb to appreciate when someone is kidding with you.

Well, rewriting history can be fun. And convenient. So, I don't blame you for trying...
Probably not the greatest idea to try and do it in THIS thread though - it's a little too obvious. You should give it a bit of time so that people can forget somewhat the details of the conversations involved, and hope they don't go back and check for themselves.

My initial reply in this thread was pretty 'jokey' actually. I only mentioned JAK talking about himself in the third person - which, come on - is a little 'freaky'...
But, you appear to be even more personally invested in this than ever. So - sorry for picking the scab. I'll admit that wasn't smart...
_marg

Post by _marg »

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:
marg wrote:Obviously you're too dumb to appreciate when someone is kidding with you.

Well, rewriting history can be fun. And convenient. So, I don't blame you for trying...
Probably not the greatest idea to try and do it in THIS thread though - it's a little too obvious. You should give it a bit of time so that people can forget somewhat the details of the conversations involved, and hope they don't go back and check for themselves.


What are you talking about? Set up a new thread and explain. Link to the posts. I remember my comment, and I was ribbing both you and moniker. Gosh little did I realize you'd both take it so seriously and be talking about it 6 months later. And let's not forget your sexual innuendo post, previous to mine...link to that as well...and we'll talk.

My initial reply in this thread was pretty 'jokey' actually.


Right real jokey.

I only mentioned JAK talking about himself in the third person - which, come on - is a little 'freaky'...


Frankly no, I find you are the little boy freak. How old are you for pete's sake? In carrying conversations on boards various methods are used to separate individuals and current posts from previous. I often do the same, I write "marg previously" to designate those posts from current and enable the other person to follow flow of conversation. But I truly can not stand people who all they do is enter a thread to throw out some mindless jab. Please just get out of this thread, I'll address you elsewhere.

But, you appear to be even more personally invested in this than ever. So - sorry for picking the scab. I'll admit that wasn't smart...


No really Ren, I hate people who enter threads to offer no more than a jab or two, that's what you are seeing. It's just so juvenile.
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