Inconceivable wrote:It is referenced in all currently accepted church publications (although the word "women" is generally replaced with "woman").
"Special Witnesses" quote from it on a regular basis.
But the Stake President warned me to stop reading between the quotes.
So what is it? What isn't it?
Is pinning down it's accurate description like trying to describe the taste of salt?
The Journal of Discourses, while containing sermons from early Church leaders, is not and has never been Scripture. It came about originally for the benefit of the Saints in the UK, so they could read the words of the leaders of the church. It was never put before the Conferences of the church to be voted on by all the membership, as to whether the Journal would be scripture along with the 4 standard works.
Even today, talks published in the ensign by the Church Leadership, for example, are often considered scripture. But unless the whole church votes on the issue, it is not official.
SAVE A LIFE - ADOPT A GREYHOUND
For whosoever call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)
The link seems to indicate that "official church publications" = " the four 'standard works' of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." I don't think the doctrine goes any further than that.
The Church publishes much, much more than that. If it bears the logo of the Church, it is an official Church publication. Otherwise, the logo has no meaning. You'll also notice that unofficial publications, even those by Prophets, carry a disclaimer about the opinions and ideas expressed in the book.
The link seems to indicate that "official church publications" = " the four 'standard works' of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." I don't think the doctrine goes any further than that.
Incorrect. The doctrine certainly does reside in the scriptures, but it is established in official works of the Church. In other words, doctrine will always be consistent with the scriptures but they cannot be established in the scriptures because there has to be an interpretation. Not just any member of the Church can intepret scripture. That is done by the FP and Qo12.
It's really easy to pin down.
As per the Church's own statements about doctrine such as that found in the link in my siggy, publication by the Church is the way to identify doctrine. Therefore, those quotes from the JoD which are found in a Church publication are doctrine. Any quote from the JoD alone is not doctrine because the JoD is not published by the Church.
I disagree with this interpretation.
Then you disagree with the Church. It's really that simple. Now with regards to the Holy Ghost, if you are speaking for yourself, that is correct. It's only you decides what is and is not doctrine for yourself (what you will believe). But what is and is not doctrine of the LDS Church is decided by the LDS Church and no one else.
We probably will be laughed at. If we're right, it's even worse. Imagine how the millenial Saints will look at us. I imagine as a bunch of barely educated fools who wandered about the Gospel with multiple wrong ideas about it, quaint and useless customs, horribly wrong rationales for why commandments were given, primitive gospel speculations, etc. I expect they will have more cause to look down on us then we do at the early Saints. I expect to have a good laugh at myself when it's all explained.
I hope you don't mean that for every principle most Mormons claim to know. Do you think you'll ever regret the time you spent at Church or the time you spent filling Church callings? Do you think you'll regret any time you followed the leaders counsel, and if so what?
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
As per the Church's own statements about doctrine such as that found in the link in my siggy, publication by the Church is the way to identify doctrine. Therefore, those quotes from the JoD which are found in a Church publication are doctrine. Any quote from the JoD alone is not doctrine because the JoD is not published by the Church.
I disagree with this interpretation.
I'm gonna go with the Holy Ghost thing again. I can't imagine how obnoxious me continually saying this is to so many people.
I can see saying the Holy Ghost communicates truth, but whether something is Church doctrine or not isn't really defined by the Holy Ghost. It's what is stated by the Brethren and what they allow to be preached in the buildings that for earthly intents and purposes they own, not God. If the Brethren say very little and allow very little to be said, than there is very little doctrine. The bank accounts and deeds don't say, "Jesus Christ." They belong to the members of the first presidency, or some leader. In theory it may be the Lord's Church, but by law it really is not.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
I can see saying the Holy Ghost communicates truth, but whether something is Church doctrine or not isn't really defined by the Holy Ghost. It's what is stated by the Brethren and what they allow to be preached in the buildings that for earthly intents and purposes they own, not God. If the Brethren say very little and allow very little to be said, than there is very little doctrine. The bank accounts and deeds don't say, "Jesus Christ." They belong to the members of the first presidency, or some leader. In theory it may be the Lord's Church, but by law it really is not.
According to Ephesians 4:11-14, it's the Church organization itself that establishes and disseminates doctrine.
grampa75 wrote:Ecclesiastes 1: 18 For in much wisdom is muuch grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
I know so much more than what I am called upon to teach. But every person has the ability to have the companionship of the Holy Spirit and it is God's intent to inspirie them to want that companionship with HIM. Allow them that right.
Isaiah 5: My people have gone astray because they have no knowledge, therefore hell hath enlarged herself and gapped open her mouth without measure.
At the same time we are taught that we shall ALL become as perfect as the Savior is before the Lord puts out the fire of the furnace and cleaning up the dross.
grampa75
What are the teachings that say "we shall ALL become as perfect as the Savior is before the Lord puts out the fire..."? Can this teaching be found in scripture?
Well, since this thread seems like it will never die, I'll add a few additional comments.
It amazes me that those that would teach responsibility and accountability make such great pains to distance themselves from what "..shall never pass away".
The God of the Old Testament asked a few simple questions that remain unanswered upon this subject:
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
(Old Testament | Isaiah 29:16)
Just between you and whoever your God is, what is your honest answer?
Think about it.
How could this ton of bricks miss you regardless of where you stand on the issue?