Someone Explain Sam's Sig Line to Me

[_marg]

I'm taking a few days breather from the computer, will get back to this thread probably by the weekend.

[_marg]

I'm only going to spend about 1/2 hr. per day in responses, so I'll address sections of your post Sam rather than the whole post at once.

The sense I'm getting from you is that on a personal level, probably on message boards your experience is that you tend to be treated with disrespect. One of your main complaints is that people who you describe as atheists virtually all think you are a fundamentalist Christian. I've pointed out to you that my questions were for clarification and you had a critical response to me telling me "Marg, there is never clarification for you, only the last word."

So on the one hand you complain because people make assumptions about you and when I ask questions for clarification I'm criticized for that.

I suspect Sam that the disrespectufl reaction from people to you whether they are atheists or not, is not solely a function of what your religious beliefs are. I don't even know what your beliefs are, I haven't made any strong assumptions.

So am I a fundamentalist atheist and if so why?

You insist that you're right. You tell me what I believe. Anyone who doesn't think like you is illogical.

Sam who are you talking to? Where have I insisted that I know what you believe? Where have I insisted that I am right? A conversation needs to develop and people express ideas first before you can accuse them of whatever it is you have in your prejudicial mind. ARe you talking to me or someone else you have had a conversation with?

Fundamentalist atheists use the same rant tactics as fundamentalist Christians. I like this quote: Militant atheism and religious fanaticism are one and the same. Any type of strong adherance to a particular kind of belief, with no tolerance to a different point of view leads to a very shallow existence.

In reading your post and your comments for example on Dawkins and Harris is it obvious that you are ignorant of their views. You are doing to them what you do to me, and that is making erroneous assumptions because it fits in with your prejudicial worldview. Sam Harris actually argues for the notion of spirituality, even for consciousness after death a possibility. And neither of those authors criticize religion in general because they expect a utopia to occur if religion were out of the picture. You picked that up from this message board in that thread by Trevor in which some author (the name escapes me atm) criticized Sam Harris for that. Well that's not what Sam Harris or Dawkins expect were religion not exist. They fully appreciate "atheists" by virtue of lack of God belief, does not make them rational. They appreciate there are degrees of irrationality in religious beliefs. Not everyone is extreme and irrational just because they belong to a religious group or believe in a God. But they do think that people act upon beliefs that are truly believed. So that in some cases an irrational belief can be the culprit for behaviors that may be unnecessarily harmful to others. They are a number of reasons both authors are are critical of religion. I'll keep it simple, my interpretation is that they don't want people in positions of power to make poor and/or detrimental decision based upon irrational religious beliefs. Acceptance of religion generally, that is backing off of criticisms serves to legitimize all religion including the extreme very irrational beliefs within. So it doesn't matter that some people are moderate, or compartmentalize their irrational beliefs, the problem is that if religion is accepted uncritically there is no cut off to demarcate when a belief can be harmful to others, to life including all forms plants and animals, and the world generally. So Harris and Dawkins are critical but they certainly are not hateful. I find it interesting that if they are critical of religion generally you label them as hateful but it's okay for you to be critical of Christian fundamentalists. I still don't understand why you have a problem with Christian Fundamentalists. Why do you single them out? So what if they believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, what is so wrong about that? As long as they don't act upon their beliefs, they aren't causing anyone any harm, right? Why should they not be accepted, whereas moderates who use the same Bible should be? Do you respect Fundamentalist Christians?

Marg, you want to see me as a flat-out Christian. You have to see me in a certain way to have your argument, just like a few others here. You can't accept that I don't care if you're atheist, I'm just tired of being painted as a Bible-thumping, gay-hating, hellknowswhatelse Christian because of what happened to YOU. It's like people in the black community going on and on about supposed injustices, but when you ask them the last time someone walked up to them and called them a n*gger, they can't say. I have a feeling that a lot of the loudest people go through their days in relative peace.

First of all Sam, nothing has happened to me. Religion has been a non issue in my personal life, my entire life, to the point that my only connection to it is through the Internet. I don't have a need to see you as anything. I mentioned that I suspect you are Christian and I believe you confirmed that for me by saying you do use sacred texts. I'm assuming the probability is you are referring to the Bible.

[_marg]

I haven't cracked open a "sacred text" in quite a while. I do not go to church, I give my money to charity or the homeless. Is that what fundie Christians do?

A fundamentalist Christian believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible and that is irrespective of how often or if ever they may read the Bible. Their fundamentalist beliefs are also irrespective of whether or not they attend Church. I'm not saying you are a fundamentalist in your Christian beliefs but I suspect that despite the fact that you don't go to Church and that you haven't read the Bible in a while that you do believe in the Christian God of the Bible, and that you do hold many beliefs typical of Christianity. So while it is true that a person can believe in a God without believing in any tenets of any organized religion, I don't think you are one of those people. That doesn't make you a fundamentalist Christian. As far as being a fundamentalist Christian what do you find wrong in being one?

----------------

Wrong about fundie Christians not attending church. Most do. If they don't, they're on what is called the "sick and shut in list". Try a better argument.

I do not believe in the Christian God of the Bible, I believe in a FORCE OF GOOD THAT RUNS THROUGH ALL NATURE AND MANKIND. I was just influenced by my Judeo-Christian upbringing, but I reject a lot of what I was taught. Try again.

Try again, try again.

While most fundamentalist Christians would likely attend church, that does not preclude an individual not attending still having fundamentalist/literal interpretation of the Bible beliefs. So whether an individual attends church or not, or hasn't cracked open a sacred text is not the critical factor.

If most atheists you come across think you are a fundamentalist Christian then there must be a reason for that. It could be they don't appreciate what it means. It could be you have very limited experience with numbers of atheists. It could be by the things you've said you have given that impression. If the numbers are significant enough and I'd say 10 people is enough, and they are independent from one another, then it would indicate if they all think you are a fundamentalist Christian, that it is likely due to something you've said. And in that case it would be your fault not theirs.

[_Sam Harris]

While most fundamentalist Christians would likely attend church, that does not preclude an individual not attending still having fundamentalist/literal interpretation of the Bible beliefs. So whether an individual attends church or not, or hasn't cracked open a sacred text is not the critical factor.

If most atheists you come across think you are a fundamentalist Christian then there must be a reason for that. It could be they don't appreciate what it means. It could be you have very limited experience with numbers of atheists. It could be by the things you've said you have given that impression. If the numbers are significant enough and I'd say 10 people is enough, and they are independent from one another, then it would indicate if they all think you are a fundamentalist Christian, that it is likely due to something you've said. And in that case it would be your fault not theirs.

All of the fundamentalist Christians I know feel that regular Bible study and a near-perfect church attendance record is part of their salvation. They feel that if they do not participate, that God's blessings will be denied them.

I disagree with your statement that whether or not an individual attends church or reads the Bible is "not a critical factor". Many fundamentalist Christians would disagree with you too, because it is through scripture study and church participation that they get their teachings.

Most atheists that I come across do not think I'm a fundamentalist Christian, rather atheists who swear up and down that they have life's answers and that I'm just a "magical thinker" do. They are so busy trying to Trump themselves while using attacks and empty rhetoric, that they hear little of what I actually do say. Once they realize that I don't fit within their narrow views, they do what they do to just about every theist who disagrees with them, they say "you're just a fundamentalist Christian", and stomp away.

I'm sorry, but you do not get to define me. My beliefs can fluxuate without your (or their) permission. No, it is not my fault that ignorant people who feel their views are the only valid ones on earth choose to call me a Bible-thumper when they fail to paint me to be what they want me to be to justify their hatred.

the numbers are significant enough and I'd say 10 people is enough, and they are independent from one another, then it would indicate if they all think you are a fundamentalist Christian, that it is likely due to something you've said. And in that case it would be your fault not theirs.

Um, no. What I have learned is that many of these people frequent the same websites, read the same books, and rub each other's backs in their need to feel superior. Their words are not new, their "proof" is not new (nor is it convincing), their rhetoric is stale. I do not see them as independent at all, rather they are to me a blob of nonsense that insists on throwing out the same polemical nonsense when they don't get a convert.

Once again MARG...and try to stop with the redundancy, it's annoying.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian. YOU AND YOUR ATHEIST FRIENDS DO NOT GET TO DEFINE THAT FOR ME. No matter how highly you think of yourself.

When I once considered myself to be Christian, I made a very plain label as to how I viewed myself. Progressive, yet Evangelical. It was not up to me to make you understand that Evangelical did not equate Fundamentalist. When I was in school for theology, many people were able to see that and discuss this point, but it was always either the extremist atheists or the fundamentalist Christians themselves who wanted to pin the title of Evangelical onto Fundamentalism. There are even people out there coining the term of "Evangelical Atheism", saying that there are people out there like your favorite atheist authors (who think it's ok to just bomb all of Islam "because of their beliefs") who are looking for converts to their faith. And they are. One wants you to be an atheist when you put his book down.

I gave up my hopes of seminary because I knew that I would have a hard time finding one that would train me to go into a church where gays were welcomed with no opposition, and a church where doctrine was examined closely, and that which was abusive and detrimental thrown out.

That is NOT fundamentalist Christianity. Now go tell someone else who they are, or rather, find out who you are yourself.

[_marg]

While most fundamentalist Christians would likely attend church, that does not preclude an individual not attending still having fundamentalist/literal interpretation of the Bible beliefs. So whether an individual attends church or not, or hasn't cracked open a sacred text is not the critical factor.

If most atheists you come across think you are a fundamentalist Christian then there must be a reason for that. It could be they don't appreciate what it means. It could be you have very limited experience with numbers of atheists. It could be by the things you've said you have given that impression. If the numbers are significant enough and I'd say 10 people is enough, and they are independent from one another, then it would indicate if they all think you are a fundamentalist Christian, that it is likely due to something you've said. And in that case it would be your fault not theirs.

All of the fundamentalist Christians I know feel that regular Bible study and a near-perfect church attendance record is part of their salvation. They feel that if they do not participate, that God's blessings will be denied them.

I disagree with your statement that whether or not an individual attends church or reads the Bible is "not a critical factor". Many fundamentalist Christians would disagree with you too, because it is through scripture study and church participation that they get their teachings.

Look Sam, please read my words more careful and stop misconstruing what I say. What you had said was you hadn't cracked open the Bible in some time, nor attended church as if both those factors preclude you from being a fundamentalist christian. Like it or not, Sam someone can still be a fundamentalist in their religious beliefs even is they haven't cracked open whatever sacred text they use or haven't attended church in a while. So your argument that I should think you are not a fundamentalist based on those 2 points isn't enough to persuade. Now I don't know if you are a fundamentalist or not, however when you tell me others think you are, then of course I wonder why. One or 2 people, okay that means little, but if the numbers are significant then that means you are likely a "cause" for their perception of you.

Most atheists that I come across do not think I'm a fundamentalist Christian, rather atheists who swear up and down that they have life's answers and that I'm just a "magical thinker" do. They are so busy trying to Trump themselves while using attacks and empty rhetoric, that they hear little of what I actually do say. Once they realize that I don't fit within their narrow views, they do what they do to just about every theist who disagrees with them, they say "you're just a fundamentalist Christian", and stomp away.

Personally I think you are arguing strawmen. You argue against some fictious atheist and call them hateful and when I ask for examples you give essentially, Dawkins, Sam Harris, GoodK and myself. I don't any of us have called you fundamentalist and stomped away.

I'm sorry, but you do not get to define me.

And I haven't tried to.

My beliefs can fluxuate without your (or their) permission.

Good for you.

No, it is not my fault that ignorant people who feel their views are the only valid ones on earth choose to call me a Bible-thumper when they fail to paint me to be what they want me to be to justify their hatred.

You obviously want to criticize atheists but frankly I don't know who you are talking about. The issues and ignorance really seem to stem from you.

the numbers are significant enough and I'd say 10 people is enough, and they are independent from one another, then it would indicate if they all think you are a fundamentalist Christian, that it is likely due to something you've said. And in that case it would be your fault not theirs.

Um, no. What I have learned is that many of these people frequent the same websites, read the same books, and rub each other's backs in their need to feel superior. Their words are not new, their "proof" is not new (nor is it convincing), their rhetoric is stale. I do not see them as independent at all, rather they are to me a blob of nonsense that insists on throwing out the same polemical nonsense when they don't get a convert.

Once again MARG...and try to stop with the redundancy, it's annoying.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian. YOU AND YOUR ATHEIST FRIENDS DO NOT GET TO DEFINE THAT FOR ME. No matter how highly you think of yourself.

Once again I haven't defined you as fundamentalist. Is this how you argue with those others who you say label you as fundamentalist.? Over and over again you accuse me of calling you a fundamentalist Christian. Yet not once have I. So if you are doing this with other people, you are creating strawmen arguments in your own mind, apparently based on your prejudices.

When I once considered myself to be Christian, I made a very plain label as to how I viewed myself. Progressive, yet Evangelical. It was not up to me to make you understand that Evangelical did not equate Fundamentalist. When I was in school for theology, many people were able to see that and discuss this point, but it was always either the extremist atheists or the fundamentalist Christians themselves who wanted to pin the title of Evangelical onto Fundamentalism. There are even people out there coining the term of "Evangelical Atheism", saying that there are people out there like your favorite atheist authors (who think it's ok to just bomb all of Islam "because of their beliefs") who are looking for converts to their faith. And they are. One wants you to be an atheist when you put his book down.

It's obvious you haven't read Sam Harris's book and make ignorant statements based upon that fact.

I gave up my hopes of seminary because I knew that I would have a hard time finding one that would train me to go into a church where gays were welcomed with no opposition, and a church where doctrine was examined closely, and that which was abusive and detrimental thrown out.

That is NOT fundamentalist Christianity. Now go tell someone else who they are, or rather, find out who you are yourself.

Lol, you are delusional.

[_Sam Harris]

Look Sam, please read my words more careful and stop misconstruing what I say.

I read exactly what you say, just because I haven't said "yes teacher" yet doesn't mean I'm not understanding. I just do not agree.

What you had said was you hadn't cracked open the Bible in some time, nor attended church as if both those factors preclude you from being a fundamentalist christian.

Please list all the fundamentalist Christians you know who neithe read the Bible nor go to church. Please, I'd love to see that list.

Like it or not, Sam someone can still be a fundamentalist in their religious beliefs even is they haven't cracked open whatever sacred text they use or haven't attended church in a while.

Marg has spoken. The thinking has been done.

So your argument that I should think you are not a fundamentalist based on those 2 points isn't enough to persuade.

Marg, if you didn't believe the sky was blue, no one would be able to convince you otherwise. You place your opinions above everything.

Now I don't know if you are a fundamentalist or not, however when you tell me others think you are, then of course I wonder why. One or 2 people, okay that means little, but if the numbers are significant then that means you are likely a "cause" for their perception of you.

You can ignore the fact that I'm dealing with people who use the same party lines, the same slang to verbally criticize, the same rediculous comparisons, meaning that they are essentially using the same mind. I don't care where they came from, they're all going to the same internet sources to tell them what to think and how to misinterpret other's beliefs for the sake of their self-aggandizement.

Personally I think you are arguing strawmen. You argue against some fictious atheist and call them hateful and when I ask for examples you give essentially, Dawkins, Sam Harris, GoodK and myself. I don't any of us have called you fundamentalist and stomped away.

No, you have "suspected" I'm fundamentalist and refuse to go away, which is worse. I do not list the other sites I frequent, because I don't want folks like you following me there.

I really don't care if GoodK exists. As far as you, you have your suspicions. As far as Harris, let's get into his hatred for a second (and how can he know me to say I'm a fundamentalist, Marg plese do not embarrass yourself so!):

"What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewey-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. (LOL, this is where it gets really comical) Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime-as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day-but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe."

My shameful namesake, The End of Faith

So tell me how it's ok for your idol to justify killing 1/5 of the world's population (because you can't think that Muslims in America would stand for such behavior)?

"I think the enemies of civilization should be beaten and killed and defeated, and I don't make any apology for it." Um, ok Hitchens, but who do you define as the enemies of civilization? "And I think it's sickly and stupid and suicidal to say that we should love those who hate us and try to kill us and our children and burn our libraries and destroy our society. I have no patience with this nonsense." Wow...Marg, have any libraries been burned by theists where you live? All the ones in my county are still in tact. And also, Hitchens is showing his prejudice, because nowhere within moderate theism does it say to let a person harm you. You can love your abuser, I do mine. But I do not let them harm me.

Do you need more straw?

I'm sorry, but you do not get to define me.

And I haven't tried to.

That is a barefaced lie. You keep trying to suspect me into admitting I'm a fundamentalist Christian. My last post to you is this one, because I know you, you can carry on the same dead horse for weeks...and for nothing.

My beliefs can fluxuate without your (or their) permission.

Good for you.

I'm glad you realize your insignificance.

No, it is not my fault that ignorant people who feel their views are the only valid ones on earth choose to call me a Bible-thumper when they fail to paint me to be what they want me to be to justify their hatred.

You obviously want to criticize atheists but frankly I don't know who you are talking about. The issues and ignorance really seem to stem from you.

Marg, when you get me the list of fundies who neither go to church nor read the Bible, I'll be more than happy to provide you with links to the BS that I've seen and dealt with.

the numbers are significant enough and I'd say 10 people is enough, and they are independent from one another, then it would indicate if they all think you are a fundamentalist Christian, that it is likely due to something you've said. And in that case it would be your fault not theirs.

Um, no. What I have learned is that many of these people frequent the same websites, read the same books, and rub each other's backs in their need to feel superior. Their words are not new, their "proof" is not new (nor is it convincing), their rhetoric is stale. I do not see them as independent at all, rather they are to me a blob of nonsense that insists on throwing out the same polemical nonsense when they don't get a convert.

Once again MARG...and try to stop with the redundancy, it's annoying.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian. YOU AND YOUR ATHEIST FRIENDS DO NOT GET TO DEFINE THAT FOR ME. No matter how highly you think of yourself.

Once again I haven't defined you as fundamentalist.

I'm sorry, you "suspect". Please give up the "rational CSI" game for a minute, will ya marg?

Is this how you argue with those others who you say label you as fundamentalist.? Over and over again you accuse me of calling you a fundamentalist Christian. Yet not once have I. So if you are doing this with other people, you are creating strawmen arguments in your own mind, apparently based on your prejudices.

I usually do not engage people who call me a fundamentalist. And I've been foolish in engaging you and your "suspicions"/

When I once considered myself to be Christian, I made a very plain label as to how I viewed myself. Progressive, yet Evangelical. It was not up to me to make you understand that Evangelical did not equate Fundamentalist. When I was in school for theology, many people were able to see that and discuss this point, but it was always either the extremist atheists or the fundamentalist Christians themselves who wanted to pin the title of Evangelical onto Fundamentalism. There are even people out there coining the term of "Evangelical Atheism", saying that there are people out there like your favorite atheist authors (who think it's ok to just bomb all of Islam "because of their beliefs") who are looking for converts to their faith. And they are. One wants you to be an atheist when you put his book down.

It's obvious you haven't read Sam Harris's book and make ignorant statements based upon that fact.

I read Letter to a Christian Nation, and I'm sorry but Harris really drowned his case and his ability to speak to many Christians by telling us what we believe.

Continue with your "suspicions", this is amusing.

I gave up my hopes of seminary because I knew that I would have a hard time finding one that would train me to go into a church where gays were welcomed with no opposition, and a church where doctrine was examined closely, and that which was abusive and detrimental thrown out.

That is NOT fundamentalist Christianity. Now go tell someone else who they are, or rather, find out who you are yourself.

Lol, you are delusional.[/quote]

The arrogant atheist's favorite word...delusional. That which they call everyone who doesn't fall in line with them. Marg, you are a piece of work. I hope in real life people put you in your place as a normal human being above no other. That might be why you pontificate so much on here.

[_marg]

Quick response Sam, because I'm going off the computer for the day. For whatever reason you have over and over and over again accused me of wanting to label you or find you to be a fundamentalist Christian.

I'll say this once and not address it again hopefully. I have no desire to label you a fundamentalist Christian. I don't differentiate much between those who are fundamentalist and those who aren't. I tend to agree with Sam Harris the author that there really isn't much difference ultimately, that religious beliefs and how irrational they are is a matter of degree.

[_SUAS]

I don't post much, but when I'm bored at work I read the posts. I thought you might enjoy this seeing as it kinda pertains to the argument between some of you.
I couldn't resist this. Irreverent but.....

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.


ENJOY

[_marg]

That is NOT fundamentalist Christianity. Now go tell someone else who they are, or rather, find out who you are yourself.

Lol, you are delusional.

The arrogant atheist's favorite word...delusional. That which they call everyone who doesn't fall in line with them. Marg, you are a piece of work. I hope in real life people put you in your place as a normal human being above no other. That might be why you pontificate so much on here.

If someone keeps telling me I said something which I didn't and if I point it out to them numerous times that I never said such a thing, and yet they ignore my denials and insist I did ..I consider them delusional.

You might as well stop the claim that I've called you a fundamentalist ..oh delusional one because I didn't. You create arguments in your own mind and carry on with those, rather than actually listening to or addressing what others do in fact say.

[_Angus McAwesome]