For Richard - Why I am not a Mormon cont...

Post by **_Alter Idem** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:13 pm

harmony wrote:You're nitpicking, Richard. I've seen you to do much better.

Desiring accuracy is not "nitpicking". There was nothing wrong with his request for accuracy--it's important to discussion.

_GoodK · Post by **_GoodK** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:33 pm

Alter Idem wrote:
harmony wrote:You're nitpicking, Richard. I've seen you to do much better.

Desiring accuracy is not "nitpicking". There was nothing wrong with his request for accuracy--it's important to discussion.

Really? Substituting the word "dislocate" with "broken" is important to discussion?

Is that what this has been reduced to?

I'd like to state my dissapointment as well, for the record.

Post by **_richardMdBorn** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:16 am

GoodK wrote:
Alter Idem wrote:
harmony wrote:You're nitpicking, Richard. I've seen you to do much better.

Desiring accuracy is not "nitpicking". There was nothing wrong with his request for accuracy--it's important to discussion.

Really? Substituting the word "dislocate" with "broken" is important to discussion?

Is that what this has been reduced to?

I'd like to state my dissapointment as well, for the record.

Sorry to have disappointed you. Let's get back to the topic. I suspect that you are quoting Genesis not because you think it's a myth, that's been obvious, but because, like Plato discussing the Greek poets such as Homer, you think it teaches bad lessons.

_GoodK · Post by **_GoodK** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:14 am

Basically, I have become convinced that not only is the Bible a fictitious assemblage of ancient fairy tales (which I have been convinced of for quite some time), but I am also convinced that there are really no signs of an intelligent designer, a creator, or any great spiritual being in the text of the Bible. I really fail to see how someone can read the Bible, and find themselves inspired to believe that the creator of this universe and everything in it had something to do with that text.

My throwing out silly parts of the Bible - such as those found in Genesis - is an effort to illustrate this point.

If you you would like me to discuss why I find the Christianity unfavorable, I can gladly continue. But I would really like to hear some good counter-arguments
to my point - the Bible being void of any reason to take it seriously.

Post by **_richardMdBorn** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:22 am

GoodK wrote:Basically, I have become convinced that not only is the Bible a fictitious assemblage of ancient fairy tales (which I have been convinced of for quite some time), but I am also convinced that there are really no signs of an intelligent designer, a creator, or any great spiritual being in the text of the Bible. I really fail to see how someone can read the Bible, and find themselves inspired to believe that the creator of this universe and everything in it had something to do with that text.

My throwing out silly parts of the Bible - such as those found in Genesis - is an effort to illustrate this point.

If you you would like me to discuss why I find the Christianity unfavorable, I can gladly continue. But I would really like to hear some good counter-arguments
to my point - the Bible being void of any reason to take it seriously.

Hi GoodK!

What's a text you'd like to discuss. I responded to your Genesis quote by asking

In this passage, Jacob wrestled with God and his character was changed. What do you object to in the passage. Do you think that God, if He exists, would not be concerned with men? Is the wrestling story too prosaic for your tastes? Or is it something else?

I’d suggest your answering my questions and we can go from there.

_GoodK · Post by **_GoodK** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:13 pm

richardMdBorn wrote:

In this passage, Jacob wrestled with God and his character was changed.

Not only was his character changed. His leg was broken (or dislocated).

What do you object to in the passage.

I object to the notion that someone could read this passage, or any other in the Bible, and find the slightest signs of a divine origin.

Do you think that God, if He exists, would not be concerned with men?

I don't think he would be concerned with breaking (or dislocating) the legs of men.

Is the wrestling story too prosaic for your tastes? Or is it something else?

It is silly. I find it to be stupid, frankly. Bottom line - it is clearly a product of that time frame and not an intelligent designer.

I’d suggest your answering my questions and we can go from there.

Hopefully this answer, along with my last post, clarifies things for you.

Post by **_richardMdBorn** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:38 am

Hi GoodK,

I object to the notion that someone could read this passage, or any other in the Bible, and find the slightest signs of a divine origin.

What type of passage could fulfill this requirement (indicate that a passage could be of divine origin).

_GoodK · Post by **_GoodK** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:01 pm

richardMdBorn wrote:Hi GoodK,
I object to the notion that someone could read this passage, or any other in the Bible, and find the slightest signs of a divine origin.
What type of passage could fulfill this requirement (indicate that a passage could be of divine origin).

You know what would really be impressive? If there was one idea, one paragraph, one statement - anywhere in the Bible that reflected some type of divine wisdom or knowledge. This can be anything.
For example, if there was a passage you could point to where Jesus warned his followers of the dangers of infectious bacteria, that would be compelling.
Or if someone in the Bible predicted future readers would later discover dinosaurs, and explained why God hadn't mentioned creating them, or even mentioned them at all.

God expected us to be reading his words today, didn't he?

Any passage that does not clearly reflect what men living during that time period already knew and believed would be fantastic.

Like how Mormons claim that the Word of Wisdom contained information that was ahead of its time, indicating some divine knowledge.

_marg · Post by **_marg** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:28 am

GoodK wrote:You know what would really be impressive? If there was one idea, one paragraph, one statement - anywhere in the Bible that reflected some type of divine wisdom or knowledge. This can be anything.
For example, if there was a passage you could point to where Jesus warned his followers of the dangers of infectious bacteria, that would be compelling.
Or if someone in the Bible predicted future readers would later discover dinosaurs, and explained why God hadn't mentioned creating them, or even mentioned them at all.

God expected us to be reading his words today, didn't he?

Any passage that does not clearly reflect what men living during that time period already knew and believed would be fantastic.

I agree GoodK. Something simple like the mention of what comprises North & South America (unknown in Jesus's day) and the peoples already living there, how they lived and dressed, perhaps a description of their language. Perhaps mention of eskimos, polar bears, or a description of the various hominids which lived up to approx 6 million years previous to modern man. There is lots of information that a divine being would have had which men at the time the Bible was being written would have been unaware of.

I'd like Richard to explain to you, what he finds as evidence of the divine in the Bible and why you should accept it as divine.

Post by **_Mary** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:51 am

richardMdBorn wrote:Hi GoodK,
I object to the notion that someone could read this passage, or any other in the Bible, and find the slightest signs of a divine origin.
What type of passage could fulfill this requirement (indicate that a passage could be of divine origin).

I'd probably have an easier time finding inspired writings in the New Testament than in the Old. I don't like everything Jesus is quoted as saying, nor do I believe that he is fully and accurately represented in the gospels. They are imperfect documents. But still, there is some really good stuff there.

Mary