Does Satan still rule the waters?

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_consiglieri
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Re: Does Satan still rule the waters?

Post by _consiglieri »

Although nobody on this board has expressed any interest in the mention I made earlier about the Book of Mormon's apparent knowledge of the ancient Hebrew tradition of the monster of the primal chaotic waters who was slain by El, I will tempt fate by posting some comments on this unusal occurrence on the off chance there may be someone who finds it of interest.

The Monster in the Book of Mormon

In explicating Isaiah 50 and 51, Jacob likens death and hell to a "monster" that God will conquer through the atonement:


O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit. 2 Nephi 9:10




O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment. 2 Nephi 9:19




For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment. 2 Nephi 9:26a


Why all this talk of a "monster"?

Three times this "monster" is mentioned by Jacob in 2 Nephi 9, describing the victory God has won over it to our deliverance.

The chapter immediately preceding in the Book of Mormon is a quotation from Isaiah 51, containing the following passage:


Awake, awake! Put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake as in the ancient days. Art thou not he that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
Art thou not he who hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over? 2 Nephi 8:9-10.


In the only sermon in the Book of Mormon using "monster" as a description of death and hell, Jacob seems to be explicating this somewhat arcane passage from Isaiah, and in such a way that harmonizes with the Oxford Bible Dictionary commentary on the Isaiah verse (51:9).


Once more we have the recall of God's saving activity as the clue to the confident expectation of his continuing power to save. We last met Rahab in 30:7, where Egypt was mocked for its incapacity. That reference is now taken up into a much larger context. The overthrow of Egypt is linked not only with the Exodus, but with the whole act of creation. It is quite impossible to decide whether the "waters of the great deep" refer to primordial chaos or to the waters of the sea in which the Egyptians were drowned; both pictures are present. We have seen that these later chapters of Isaiah stress YHWH's activity as creator; here that is pictured . . . as a victorious struggle against evil monsters. The theme is the same as that of Gen 1: the way in which it is expressed differs greatly. All this is translated in NRSV with past tenses, and that may be inevitable in English. But it is noteworthy that the verbs are participles, as if YHWH is envisaged as continuing to carry out these saving acts. In any case they are seen as a foretaste of the anticipated act of salvation: the pilgrimage to Zion of those who have been ransomed by God. This theme which has run right through the book from 2:2-4 onwards here reaches its climax. Oxford Bible Commentary on Isaiah, p. 476.



Much more could be said under this head, but for now perhaps it is enough to note that Jacob's singular usage of the term "monster" as a description of death and hell, over which God has gained the victory through the atonement, and provided a way for our deliverance, is reflected in Isaiah 51:9-10 in an arcane passage dealing with God's victory over the primeval "monster" Rahab, the dragon; that this is the only time this passage of Isaiah is quoted in the Book of Mormon; that it is quoted in the chapter immediately preceding the "monster" commentary; and that Jacob specifically give us to understand that his sermon is an intended explication of the Isaiah chapter.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_KimberlyAnn
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Re: Does Satan still rule the waters?

Post by _KimberlyAnn »

Holy Cow, Consiglieri!

That's a Satanically Ruled Waters (SRW) Bulls-Eye if I've ever seen one!

;)

KA
_Alter Idem
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Re: Does Satan still rule the waters?

Post by _Alter Idem »

Mahonri wrote:Years ago while serving an LDS Mission we were told swimming was verboten because Satan ruled the waters. It was dangerous for missionaries or any of the Lords servants to go in or on the waters as the adversary would use them to drown you.

Is this still taught or believed?


I always believed this claim came from the incident from D&C 61. Some of the church elders were traveling on water and after having some near misses, were warned to stay away from the water and travel on land--W.W. Phelps even said that he saw in vision "the destroyer" riding on the waters;

D&C 61:18 ...you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares;

19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree.



Personally, even though the Lord says he "revokes not the decree"...I've been thinking that Satan rides the roads!! It's such a pain in the neck to drive anywhere these days, with all the traffic and terrible drivers! The waters seem pretty calm by comparison.


So, if missionaries were warned from water--one reason of many others (like the fact that there's always the chance of accidental drowning and the clothing is skimpy and missionaries are on missions to work, not recreate) probably came from this incident from early church history.
Every man is a moon and has a [dark] side which he turns toward nobody; you have to slip around behind if you want to see it. ---Mark Twain
_consiglieri
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Re: Does Satan still rule the waters?

Post by _consiglieri »

KimberlyAnn wrote:Holy Cow, Consiglieri!

That's a Satanically Ruled Waters (SRW) Bulls-Eye if I've ever seen one!

;)

KA


Hi, Cupcake!

I just saw your post. I thought I did admirably in not once using the word "bull's-eye" in that post, but you see right through me.

Hope you are having a wonderful day!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_floatingboy
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Re:

Post by _floatingboy »

silentkid wrote:It is totally absurd to believe that Satan rules the waters because we all know that Satan lives in Hell which is a really hot place, full of fire and brimstone and lava and sweat and stuff and water is used to put out fires and to quench thirst and Satan would have nothing to do with something that would put out his evil flames. Besides, Satan doesn't even know how to swim and if he were in the ocean or a swimming pool, he would surely drown. If anyone rules the waters, it is Michael Phelps.



haha jared! this is some of the funniest stuff i've ever heard you say. classic. however, i feel i should update your post: there's no way michael phelps can rule the waters. he smokes pot. and we all know that potheads are losers.


but seriously, unless someone can provide a reference, this whole business of missionaries not swimming because of satan drowning them, although a rampant tale, is just that: a tale. and just because you hear your bishop say it doesn't make it doctrine or even official church policy. he just heard it from the same rumor mill you did. ("you" being the generic you or "one"). nehor's right: the "white Bible" is the go-to source, and i'm sure it has WAY more to do with liability than anything else. as a naïve missionary, i believed that wives tale thing too, until (thankfully) someone made this much more sensible point while was still a missionary: if no missionaries can swim, no missionaries can drown while swimming. makes sense.

i do dig the reference consiglieri pulled out of isaiah. rahab/dragon? is that some biblical way of saying that the dinosaurs had to be killed by a meteor in order for mankind to take center stage? god had to wipe out their race? ha, Jenn Kamp. i actually really do appreciate it when someone is actually literate and informed and can share it with the rest of us. thanks, consiglieri.
-"I was gonna say something but I forgot what it was."
-"Well, it must not have been very important or you wouldn't've forgotten it!"
-"Oh, I remember. I'm radioactive."
_cinepro
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Re: Does Satan still rule the waters?

Post by _cinepro »

If Satan controls the waters, why would any LDS go swimming? Why is it limited to just the missionaries?

While the verse from D&C is interesting, it is likely unrelated to the missionary rule. Missionary rules are to keep missionaries safe and focused. Unless we are also willing to believe that Satan controls full-court basketball.

(This was also discussed over at http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=30665MA&D a while back, for those who are interested).
_moksha
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Re: Does Satan still rule the waters?

Post by _moksha »

cinepro wrote:
(This was also discussed over at http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=30665MA&D a while back, for those who are interested).


They covered this topic really well.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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